🎙️ All these people conducting the seance were bringing in these nine maybe extraterrestrial beings, maybe beings that go to the nine Egyptian gods, but it’s like a council.
🎙️ He really was a genuine believer.
🎙️ I’m Andrija Puharich. I’m a physician by training, research scientist by choice.
🎙️ We have tape recordings of him meditating in the King’s Chamber.
🎙️ What?
🎙️ And they brought through this information. Apparently, they’re channeling this Egyptian god.
🎙️ There’re nine There are specifically nine Egyptian gods.
🎙️ So, he gets this call from a metallic voice that was some sort of, you know, alien intelligence. This is what, you know, you hear a lot about this with the UFO abduction stuff. Like these these people like weren’t looking to be in the spotlight. It took about 2 years for me to basically earn the trust of these space kids. It’s like Stranger Things in real life.
🎙️ You know, one neat solution that would explain everything away would be mind control, right?
🎙️ Delgado implanted radio receivers in the heads of bull.
🎙️ Delgado has remote control of the animal.
🎙️ You have a guy who’s being able to play the bull like a video game.
🎙️ I’m revealing for the first time lot of things that even my closest working colleagues do not know.
🎙️ There’s reason to believe Puharich may have been a double agent. He says it
🎙️ Really?
🎙️ tape.
🎙️ This is one of the craziest interviews I’ve ever done, man.
🎙️ Ignition sequence start.
🎙️ How is this possible?
🎙️ Nothing too unusual about that.
🎙️ Their existence cannot longer be denied.
🎙️ I’m here with Greg Malatzi. This has been a long time coming. We’ve had a lot of interesting offline conversations. You made an amazing documentary called Mind Traveler about this very mysterious mid-century scientist named Andrija Puharich who is like this Zelig of American conspiracies. He’s this architect of MK Ultra and early CIA mind control techniques, but also seems to be channeling aliens through what he calls the space kids, this like collection of kids who he recruits who are psychic. He’s the inspiration for Star Trek incidentally. Like he is one of the most interesting people I’ve ever encountered and you’ve made this amazing documentary on him. So I just can’t wait to dive into this and I appreciate you being here.
🎙️ Oh, thanks, man. I appreciate you having me.
🎙️ Absolutely. So what give me a little bit about the origin story for Andrija Puharich. Who is he and how did he come to be one of these kind of renegade spooky scientists involved in mind control?
🎙️ I guess you could start it at Northwestern University. He went there. He was a medical student. I think he started in 47. And so he was there doing all sorts of stuff with the nervous system. He was very interested in in in that and he was doing like normal medical training and he was actually part of the Army Specialized Training Program. Have you heard of this?
🎙️ No.
🎙️ It’s a special program where basically they recruit students who they believe could be you know useful to whatever they’re planning on doing in the in certain categories of the army whether it be medical so forth. He was a medical doctor and he was he was part of this program. It’s very strange. Kissinger was part of this program.
🎙️ Really?
🎙️ A bunch of other weird people um Kurt Vonnegut, the author.
🎙️ What?
🎙️ Yeah, you could look it up. It’s it’s really weird. So, he he was part of that. Basically, it was like sort of a recruiting program. And they saw something in him all the way back in ‘47 when he was a medical student. And he he very rarely In fact, I’ve never even heard him mention this in in all the stuff I’ve listened to and read about him. So, for whatever reason, you know, he didn’t talk about it. And that could have been his first, you know, step into that world, the military world. But um that happened when he was a medical student like way before the Round Table Foundation, the first lab he had, or anything like that. So.
🎙️ What did this military program, this Army program, involve?
🎙️ Well, it you can even on Wikipedia, there’s there’s not much about it. But I again, I think it was more like looking at certain institutions, certain places for people who are special. I mean, Army specialized training, you know, and and he was considered special at that time for what he was doing. And they just saw something in him and he was brought into that program. I don’t know what it did exactly or you know, what like yeah, the day-to-day or anything. But he was part of it as well as like again, a list of other people like in all areas, right? Again, Kurt Vonnegut, the author, like all these people
🎙️ It’s crazy.
🎙️ of that.
🎙️ Where was he a medical student?
🎙️ Northwestern, Chicago.
🎙️ Okay.
🎙️ Which you know, is a very prestigious school.
🎙️ Absolutely. Evanston. And I think also J. Allen Hynek was, you know, as astronomer Blue Book was Northwestern, too. So.
🎙️ Yeah. Yeah.
🎙️ Okay, so he’s in the Chicago suburbs and he’s a medical student. How does he get into like telepathy and mind control and things like that?
🎙️ I came up with a theory of the nervous system that I called the Puharich theory. I visualized the nervous system as being embedded in the cell tissue of the body, just as the roots of a tree are embedded in the ground which gives it nourishment. But the tree also has a similar network radiating into the sky. Perhaps man does as well. And he too gains nourishment through a touchless process. And if dynamics can be transferred, why can’t thoughts?
🎙️ So, he was, yeah, medical student and there’s a guy also at Northwestern at the time named Warren S. McCulloch. Um, do you know who that is? No, who’s that? You you could do an episode on him.
🎙️ [laughter]
🎙️ He’s like, you know, the uh Puharich on steroids sort of, back then at least. But he was a very far out researcher into um he basically ESP
🎙️ Okay.
🎙️ stuff back then. He was very interested in like, you know, alter uh drugs, psychedelic drugs, mind-altering stuff.
🎙️ For the audience, ESP is extrasensory perception.
🎙️ yeah. Extrasensory perception. So, he was at Northwestern and this guy McCulloch, I think I’m pronouncing that right. Um, but he sort of took Puharich under his wing and um from what I understand was the first person who introduced him to, you know, whatever weird science, if you want to call it that. Because he was one of these guys, McCulloch, who would, you know, on his off time do all these like strange experiments with uh radio frequencies and and and that kind of stuff. And I think like in the academic setting he had to, you know, put on a suit and tie and like not talk about that, basically. [clears throat] But um he also was very involved in intelligence stuff. Like he was always getting sort of like we have letters um from like CIA and stuff back then who were kind of going to him with questions and and so forth.
🎙️ McCullough.
🎙️ McCullough, yeah.
🎙️ Interesting.
🎙️ Yeah. And he actually there was an archive in I think it was in Northwestern. It was some bizarre archive I found years ago making the film. And you know I if I know you had Annie Jacobsen on like she she’s in the film. And she was trying to find records on McCullough because you know he’s really interesting. He was part of the Buharic story and and somehow we found this like big stash of archives of his that again were these letters from from CIA and and the Navy and everything sort of I guess wanting to to recruit him.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ But in those letters they were they were letters from McCullough back to these agencies saying you know you should check this guy Buharic out.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ You know he’s I work with him. He’s young. He’s very smart. And and he was older like much older than Buharic at that time. I think he was probably like you know in his 70s or 80s or something. So you know he passed on. But basically that I think triggered Buharic to get very interested in the subject. So he became almost like obsessed with it and he sort of had this moment back then where he’s like I’m either going to choose the traditional academic path or I’m going to choose the you know path of of ESP telepathy. And he he talks very openly about like making that choice.
🎙️ I was unexpectedly put in contact with Henry A. Wallace, vice president under Franklin Delano Roosevelt. He was impressed by my quest for the existence of telepathy and granted me a large sum of money. Additional benefactors emerged, including the heirs to two of the wealthiest families in the world, the Astors and the DuPonts.
🎙️ I was able to get a barn. I started working in the dead of winter in ‘48 in in Maine.
🎙️ We lived in a big 50-room house on the seashore, which was a lab and residence and so on. It was called Round Table Foundation.
🎙️ And so he opens the Round Table Foundation. So, there’s a lot going on with how that even opened um because it’s a huge lab. It’s like a massive barn. It’s on the coast of Maine, Rockland, Maine it’s called. So, you know, it’s this huge place. He’s got like a staff, you know, all and and and the thing with Puharich I learned like he tells a a different story of how the Round Table started and how he got the money and everything to what we kind of figured out was really going on.
🎙️ you figure out?
🎙️ Well, it was all, you know, government-funded.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ Um at that time.
🎙️ Who It was the CIA or
🎙️ Uh everyone. Army, Navy, CIA, um something called the um something Armor Foundation that was somehow tied into into the army, but but basically any any of those places back then. I mean, we have letters um uh of all of them. You get army, navy, you name it. I mean, they were just like flocking to this place, basically giving him money to do research. And this was, yeah, ‘49, ‘50, very early.
🎙️ Fascinating. And you think their preliminary interest was mind control, telepathy, anything beyond the purview of kind of normal materialist reductionist physics that might be able to be weaponized or confer a tactical advantage to the United States or
🎙️ It’s It’s complex, but yes, the short answer is yes, but I think obviously there was an interest in ESP and in what he was doing and in this idea of okay, what if this is real? I mean, he speaks a lot and we you know, we uncovered like hundreds of tape recordings of his um that no one’s ever heard and so you know, he talks a lot about like they were just obsessed at that time with like what if this were real? What are the implications? What if somebody could basically remote view? I mean, he was doing remote viewing and this is something like I don’t think is really out there like way way before SRI 70s like we’re talking early 50s.
🎙️ Woah.
🎙️ He’s basically doing what would be considered remote viewing.
🎙️ Do you think Hal Puthoff was aware of Puthoff’s kind of foundation that he set with remote viewing? Cuz the story is that you know, official American remote viewing kind of started with Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ and Stanford Research Institute.
🎙️ Yeah, I’m I’m not trying to make bold statements but that’s just That’s not, you know, true. If you look if you’re looking at it from a like research when did this start because we have like all of the um roundtable research which is so much. I mean, even all the time we spent on the film, it’s I still haven’t looked at it all, but they basically detail the experiments going on which were you know, your classic ESP stuff, you know, like the cards.
🎙️ Yep.
🎙️ All that, but no, they were doing like what would exactly the definition of like remote viewing.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ And so yeah, I think they were they they you know, intelligence community so forth were were just very intrigued with what was going on there.
🎙️ So it’s a combination of kind of you know, these military factions and then these kind of blue-blooded elites.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ Sort of. And um what exactly is going on there? So, who is he recruiting to do these experiments and what sort of experiments is he running at the Roundtable Foundation?
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🎙️ So, again, it started with a lot of just basic ESP stuff, you know, can can somebody uh pick up on what’s written on a letter in the other room. Um a lot of yeah, like the card uh guessing and then he obviously the built a Faraday cage there and I think you know, was one of the first people as far as I understand doing ESP tests in a in a Faraday cage where basically he would like put people who claim to be psychic in in the cage and it was his belief that that could sort of, you know, block out anything from the outside and it would really help the psychic focus and be able to do what they could do.
🎙️ And he had, I mean, Aldous Huxley would go to the Roundtable Foundation, right? And and obviously Aldous Huxley is known probably best for a lot of his science fiction work, but but also, you know, the Doors of Perception where he talks about his experience with with mescaline and then, you know, if you really get into the maybe deeper kind of architectures of his thinking like in Perennial Philosophy, he’s like clearly this kind of deep esotericist and so he was hanging out at the Roundtable Foundation, too?
🎙️ Yeah, they were good friends. In fact, on Buharach’s book, uh The Sacred Mushroom, which is how I got into this whole thing. I I had read that book when I was much younger and I was really interested in all that stuff and you know, what’s the book? DMT, The Spirit Molecule. Yeah, I was really into that and I came across The Sacred Mushroom, Buharach’s book, which is very interesting. Have you read that?
🎙️ I haven’t read it. Yeah, I I think I have it, but I haven’t read it, yeah.
🎙️ The premise is basically, you know, and this was also the research he was doing at the Roundtable was people, you know, taking a certain type of mushroom in this instance the Amanita muscaria, you know, gives people ESP abilities and they did extensive research on that there. But on the cover of that book, you know, all this stuff so gives a blurb for Puharich and calls him, you know, the greatest mind in parapsychology. But yeah, they were good friends. He was there all the time. Again, very interested in what he was doing. Really thought Puharich was like on to something. So, yeah.
🎙️ Yeah, and the Amanita muscaria mushroom is a very interesting mushroom. It’s the kind of archetypal, you know, emoji on all of our, you know, cell phones or iPhones at least. But it also, I believe John Marco Allegro, who is a, you know, a scholar of various, you know, ancient languages, he came to the very heretical conclusion that the Eucharist itself was an Amanita muscaria mushroom. And so the the actual transubstantiation involved this like mushroom. And that maybe what Jesus underwent was some sort of kind of pagan mystery ritual that allowed him to sort of gain the magical powers that he achieved in the book of Acts. And that that whole thing had some kind of hermetic meaning that, you know, isn’t just maybe a literal reincarnation or something. And so that I assume that must have because I think his the name of his book is similar. It’s the sacred mushroom in the cross or something. Was there maybe some some influence there with Puharich?
🎙️ I’m sure there was. You know, from from what I understand when Puharich’s book came out, it was, you know, it’s now sort of like a cult classic, but at the time it was like, you know, controversial because just basically people didn’t believe in what he was writing.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ And that I think kind of kick-started the you know, way people looked at Puharich as being, you know, kind of like a kook.
🎙️ Yeah, yeah, yeah.
🎙️ But, he clearly wasn’t.
🎙️ Clearly, but he was he also was amongst he was kind of a pioneer and had a few peers who were also at the forefront of their fields, people like Albert Hofmann, Carl Ruck, and Stanislav Grof, who thought of themselves as creating what they called the new Eleusis based on kind of, you know, past mystery rituals, the Eleusinian mystery rituals.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ And they involved ergot and psychedelic substances and, you know, these sort of, you know, Persephone’s quest style, you know, you was you go down you descend to the underworld and you come back up and you
🎙️ you know, you you you gain knowledge of your primordial soul and so
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ Puharich was, you know,
🎙️ Uh
🎙️ Uh
🎙️ he was amidst this backdrop. He was he was sort of on his on his come up, which
🎙️ Oh, yeah. Yeah.
🎙️ you know, maybe isn’t a coincidence.
🎙️ We are the positive principles cosmos. We penetrate to visit persons. We work through the study, but it is under our control. We learn and our will.
🎙️ The very first time that Andrija heard about the nine was through Dr. Vinod.
🎙️ I’ve never seen people like this that I have studied. Dr. Vinod had become a channel for a civilization somewhere out there from outer space. It’s so alien we’re thinking we can’t even comprehend it. They call themselves, these beings, the nine. But what is the nine? They said, “Well, it’s hard to explain to you. We’re not personalities as you think of personality. We’re more like laws or principles of the universe.”
🎙️ That part of Puharich’s story where I think things sort of change in his life is when, you know, this instance happens when the the the first channel, the nine, which was in ‘52. And it is correct. All these people were there. Again, these were people who were like benefactors who were interested in what he was doing. But, um it all started with this guy Vinod. You may have heard this name. He was a an Indian psychic. He came to the round table again through recommendation of somebody Puharich I was working with. And the story goes, he shows up in Maine, goes to the Round Table Foundation, and the first night he’s there, he just unexpectedly falls into a into a trance. And, you know, they’re like, “What’s going on here?” Someone grabs a tape recorder, which we have the tapes of. And he goes into a trance and he just starts speaking, you know, saying, you know, “We are the nine.” And uh where we’re coming through to you now. And and just kind of on and on and on about a lot of philosophical, new age sort of stuff, basically. I mean, it’s really really it’s a lot. I mean, there’s there’s thousands of pages, literally, of transcripts of what they recorded with him. But, that’s how it it it the story goes of how the nine first appears, based on this guy Vinod. But, mostly Vinod, so the interesting interesting thing about uh this guy Dr. Vinod was his name. He He was friends with Gandhi, right? They were They were really really They were really close. So, this was something I learned like way later into the process of the film because, you know, this was a as you know, it took like almost 10 years. And it was mostly because these new facts and things would just like come up that I never knew. Or somebody would say, “Hey, have you seen this?” And And so, Vinod, like I only really discovered a couple of years into it. But, he was an interesting guy. And he was on a tour at the time in the United States going to like Rotary clubs and and dinner parties like lecturing about theosophy and spiritualism and all sorts of stuff like that. And it is very very little information on this guy. I mean, we tried to dig up like everything we possibly could, but that’s what we know about him. He was a professor at university in Bombay. And again with Andrija Puharich, never mentions any of that. His version of the story is this guy they’d just randomly came in fell into a trance no context. You know, never mentions it. So, that begins this like okay, what’s what’s really going on here? Because he clearly is has a background that’s that’s interesting that he has never mentioned. And then when Andrija Puharich leaves eventually, I think 54 he goes back and then never talks about him again, you know? There’s this huge moment in his life the nine first comes through through this guy and he just kind of sort of like never talks about it. I think that’s where the conspiracy starts as far as what people believe to be like I guess a a psyop. I mean,
🎙️ Right.
🎙️ I mean, I don’t want we don’t have to get into that now, but
🎙️ No, I want to get into the psyop elements of it. But it it sounds like fundamentally he’s a believer in extrasensory perception, psychic abilities, right? He’s not cynical about those things or erasing them.
🎙️ yeah.
🎙️ No, yeah, that’s I think
🎙️ a big question and even now I I I always think, but I mean, yeah, there’s just no question he was interested in that.
🎙️ Yeah, and and earnestly or do you think it was some fronts for like okay. Because what’s and we’ll get into this in a little bit, but it that there also possible prosaic explanations around exotic electromagnetic wavelengths that can cause, you know, thoughts to be implanted in people and stuff, which is nuts. Um, but I think he wouldn’t reduce everything to that would be my rough understanding personally. Yeah.
🎙️ No, definitely not. Yeah, there’s a lot to get into there, but basically, so what did the nine say?
🎙️ Yes.
🎙️ And so, again, it’s really it’s a lot, so I have to give a shout out to Dick Russell.
🎙️ Yeah. I do.
🎙️ So, he he’s awesome. And he he’s written some amazing books. And so, he he was friends with this woman, Maryann Shellenfield, this, you know, allegedly amazing psychic. She passed away, but I got to know Dick, and he said, you know, I met Puharich once. In fact, I I tape recorded an interview with him. It was ‘94, literally the year before Puharich died/was found dead mysteriously. But, he he recorded an interview with him because at the time Dick Russell was wanting to write like a definitive book about MK Ultra, and he wanted to interview these people involved. And in fact, he has one of the only interviews, as far as I know, with Sidney Gottlieb. He spent a whole day with him. He literally show told me to showed up at his house and said, “Hey, you know, yes or no, will you let me interview you?” And And he said, “Yes.” And so, he has that. So, that This was part of that research he was doing for a book, but um
🎙️ Just for the audience real quick, cuz I know we’re getting into what the nine said, but Sidney Gottlieb was known as the kind of US version of Joseph Mengele, a poisoner in chief, an architect of MK Ultra from the Technical Services. So, that’s wild. Dick Russell spent a whole day with him.
🎙️ Yeah. So, what what are the nine saying?
🎙️ So, so, yeah, it’s a lot of the sort of usual I guess channeling talk where there’s this idea that there’s been this this surveillance of of Earth and that they’ve been monitoring Earth and they’ve been seeing the negative things happening. They’ve been seeing wars. They’ve been seeing nuclear weapons and they’re wanting to help basically. That the general message is this idea that they are are wanting to help the human race, you know, basically not destroy itself. This, you know, goes on way through the 70s when Puharich the Nine come back. Uh but it it was basically a lot of yeah, trying to help humanity. It was a lot of like you probably heard a lot about how they sometimes these channelers are you know, what is it called? Like remote writing when someone’s in a trance. Yeah, automatic writing. There was a lot of like very complex equations that would come through that would the Nine meaning Vinod speaking as the Nine. A lot of like write this down because you’ll understand later what it means sort of stuff. And we have this notebook that he wrote everything in. It’s it’s really I mean, maybe I’m sure you might know somebody who could look at this. I mean, I I’m just making the film. I mean, I I’m very
🎙️ Well, we should just see if any of it checks with actual science or math or
🎙️ It’s crazy. They would say the Nine, they would say you know okay, look, you’re contacting us through a psychic, but if you want a clearer feed, a a clearer transmission, you have to put the psychic in a Faraday cage. And on top of that, you should tweak the Faraday cage and build it this way and use this type of metal and use this type They were they were telling him and constructing him how to like build the Faraday cage in a specific way that would like help this transmission and it did. Well, because you can hear the tapes. It was a lot It was very like stalled speech and waiting and then when they did the Faraday cage sessions, it was like just boom, they would talk. So, I heard that and I was like, okay, well, that that’s weird, you know?
🎙️ So crazy.
🎙️ Because like again, there’s a lot of it that you could just say, oh, you know, this could have been made up or whatever, but when it gets to that, it was very very specific stuff, you know, copper. They’re They’re big on copper. You need to use that and it needs to be, you know, these dimensions. I mean, really specific stuff and they would follow it. So, they were basically like following instructions from the nine. And you see the results get better as far as their channeling as the results get better. And that again, to me, I just thought that’s that’s that’s interesting because it’s not just sort of like, you know, spiritual mumbo jumbo.
🎙️ Wavy stuff that’s like totally unfalsifiable. It’s like the literally like the transmissions are coming When you say that that’s getting better, it’s just like more more gets channeled like more substance
🎙️ clearer, just sort of more precise. And the other thing too was again, it was this copper this thing with copper where they would also say, “Okay, what you need to do is you need to get the This is really crazy cuz of what happens later on in his story, but they would say, you know, you need to have copper touching your your skin. And so, you would you would need some sort of like bracelet or something that would kind of like constantly be touching your skin in order again for like the the transmission to be better and they would do that.
🎙️ Wow.
🎙️ And what’s crazy is one of the space kids that I met and that we interviewed for the film, she whipped out this This is, you know, only a couple years ago. She whipped out this bracelet she had that was like a copper a little copper plate on this bracelet that she said like they all had to wear when they were doing their channeling sessions with him decades later. So, the copper thing is strange. And he and Puharich obsessed over that and that’s the other thing. To me, you know, being a little skeptical, I was like, well, someone of Puharich’s uh you know, academic abilities like clearly he he he wouldn’t take the time and the energy like to look into this stuff as deep as he did, you know, like he like obsessed over this. He would go meet other academics, “Hey, does this check out?” And you know, he really like was obsessive about this being legitimate.
🎙️ And Phyllis Schlemmer who later wrote The Only Planet of Choice, which channels the nine, I think she talks about the nine with respect to messages around the Earth being a bottleneck of consciousness, right? And like other planets being more ascended and these nine really trying to help raise consciousness
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ on Earth, which might sort of sound like a cliché, but
🎙️ Yeah. One thing that they were doing at the round table uh were was that the psychic this one particular psychic would would claim that at a certain time of night uh they would see an orb. And they would go outside by the ocean and they would see orbs. Uh and this happened and the only, you know, evidence I I have is Puharich’s own writing cuz we have all of his journals and he writes this in his journals where he literally says like this psychic would just blurt out, you know, “11:00, you know, tonight.” And they’d go out and they would see an orb.
🎙️ Whoa.
🎙️ And I just thought that was interesting because of there’s there’s so much talk of this orb stuff going on currently. I don’t know a whole lot about it, but I just that kind of rang a bell or I’m like, oh yeah, he wrote about that. And he he he did many experiments where he allegedly took photos, which of course, you know, weren’t in the big stash of photos we had from back then, but he he that’s what he claimed that there was like orb activity. This would have been, you know, early ’50s again. Yeah.
🎙️ So trippy. Yeah, know that uh almost sounds like Chris Bledsoe or something. These people who seem to attract uh these orbs. And it would make sense because those people also seem to be sort of high psi or you know, you know, they have higher kind of mind matter capabilities or whatever. There’s seems like there’s some sort of correlation there. The connection Lavenda makes is that all these people conducting the seance bringing in these nine maybe extraterrestrial beings, maybe beings that go to the nine Egyptian uh gods or whatever. We don’t exactly know what these nine beings are, but it’s like a council. And and later the nine praise plays prominently because this channeler Phyllis Schlemmer uh like gets all these messages from the nine along with a lot of the kids and stuff. But but that that all of the people in this original seance with these blue-blooded elites are also entangled with the JFK assassination, which is so crazy.
🎙️ To make a long story short, there’s a seance that’s held in uh late ‘52, early ‘53. I think it was the New Year’s Eve of ‘52 to ‘53. And there are nine people involved in the seance. Now, these are not just some casual nine people you pick up like, you know, your neighbors or something, right? This was a Dupont and an Astor and a Forbes. I mean, everybody that represents the the blue-blooded Brahmins of American society, old money people, were at a seance, a freaking seance, right? In the woods in Maine on New Year’s Eve with Andrija Puharich. And one of them uh is the guy who was the inventor of the Bell helicopter. Right. So
🎙️ Is that Arthur Young?
🎙️ Arthur Young. So Arthur Young is there with his wife. His wife is Ruth Forbes Payne Young.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ Right? She had a lot of names. She was excessively nomenclatured. And so you have, you know, Ruth Forbes Payne Young. She’s a Forbes. She was married to a George Payne, Lyman Payne, and also married to Arthur Young.
🎙️ So in that seance with uh you know, these kind of blue-blooded elites that Puharich is convening, I think one of the people who’s close with Mary Bancroft, who’s Dulles’ mistress, is a woman named Ruth Forbes Payne.
🎙️ Forbes Payne.
🎙️ And so she’s a Forbes first and so again going to the blue-blooded elite thing. But I think her daughter is Ruth Payne, who takes in Lee Harvey Oswald.
🎙️ I know.
🎙️ And Lee Harvey Oswald is living with Ruth Payne and I think gets a job at the Texas Book Depository in Texas, in Dallas, through Ruth Payne. And then ends up, you know, maybe not being the lone gunman, but
🎙️ [laughter]
🎙️ you know, attempting JFK’s life.
🎙️ And in her home, she opens her door to some refugees, you know, people who are recent immigrants from Russia. Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife Marina.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ And their kids.
🎙️ Woah.
🎙️ So they’re living with Ruth Payne in this house in Texas. She gets him the job at the Texas School Book Depository.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ And so it’s these these weird entanglements where and I the Nine believed themselves to be sort of agents or sorry, the the the group in the seance believed themselves to be agents of these extraterrestrials, right? Like to be acting on their behalf.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ And so like and I know Puharich would stop at airports and try and meditate because he thought he would be bringing about world peace and that the Nine would speak to him through his watch and stuff. And so I wonder sometimes was it all good or was it bad? I mean, I don’t think, you know, the assassination of JFK was good. He seemed like a great man who was resisting really dark forces.
🎙️ Yeah, yeah.
🎙️ Um so it’s just strange story.
🎙️ don’t you just want to hear something really strange about that?
🎙️ Oh, yeah.
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🎙️ Want to hear something really strange about that?
🎙️ Oh, yeah.
🎙️ So
🎙️ That’s why you’re here.
🎙️ This yeah, this this woman who I got to know very well who’s in the film, she was Puharich’s assistant
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ for for many years and starting in I think 63 basically she worked with him I think until like the the the mid-80s and she she’s amazing. She’s from Hawaii very nice woman, but she met him in New York. She was a student at NYU and Puharich is working um with this is a whole other thing to get into but he had started his company there called Intelectron Corporation but she started as sort of an intern at this company Intelectron which was basically a biomedical research company I we can get into that but basically she told me a story that she was working at Intelectron the day JFK was assassinated and that these men in suits she says came into the offices went into Puharich’s office said something to him that seemed very serious and they left and she said the whole rest of the day Puharich was out of sorts.
🎙️ What?
🎙️ This could be as simple as you know it how horrible that this the president was shot or it could have been something else but she was very specific to say I remember this happening it was very strange but to finish the nine thing basically in in the fifth the round table ends in 57 I think right? Meaning they they for whatever reason I mean I think I know the reason basically he moved on to Intelectron which I can talk about but he you know he claims oh we we ran out of funding, the benefactors lost interest, and it and it shut down. But, it all the while he was getting money from the Army. I mean, there’s records of that. But, um so, the nine stopped allegedly. And I think Levenda, I think, talks about this, but a lot of like the early nine-related conspiracies start around that time, too, with this idea that it was a side op, or that it was this early psychological warfare experiment where can we get, you know, certain groups of people to believe in something, and to what extent? And a lot of people think that that was like the nine. They think that’s all it was. They think any sort of like real channeling or any is just, you know, is is fake, and that it was all set up as this sort of psychological warfare experiment, which, you know, there’s there’s reasons to to think that
🎙️ Sure.
🎙️ that could be true, but um that’s where a lot of that, you know, starts.
🎙️ Uh you know, I think that’s possible, but you think about like what when did MK Ultra start? It was probably there’s probably stuff going on before ‘52, but really the Korean War is like when, you know, conventionally it’s it’s dated to. And the idea that they were that sophisticated at the very start of MK Ultra where they could convince these sort of elite members of society that they were in touch with these specific extraterrestrial beings, and that that that those extraterrestrial beings were constructing Faraday [snorts] chambers that were able to like make the messages they received more effective like like this elaborate sort of magic trick. That seems a little beyond the pale to me. Yeah. But, um that’s
🎙️ It’s a big mystery. I mean, even like I I’ll admit it, the years and years I research I mean, even I don’t know. Like, a lot of people I talk to who are interested in this stuff and know about the film and so forth like they think that I know all the answers and I I even I wish I did. And it’s not like I’m hiding something because I’m worried that you know, I’m going to be a monitor. I just don’t, you know. I know what was in the archives and a lot of the film for me was like, “Okay, what what do we know? What is a fact and let’s like work off that.” And then so it’s really just like, “Okay, here’s the transcripts. Here’s what they were saying.”
🎙️ Speaking of what are the facts, we have to get back to this Intelectron thing. Like so you’re the implication of this story that this company had something to do with the assassination of JFK or like were these men in tweed suits raiding the office, the CIA, and were they they thinking that Intelectron had something to do with this or
🎙️ So, um So, Puharich yeah, he leaves the Round Table. He moves to New York City or he moves to Ossining. A lot of people know this in relation to Puharich cuz he lived there most of his life. Yeah, it’s you know, an hour on the train north of the city. You know, Mad Men of course, the show. Like I didn’t even realize all the characters, they all live in Ossining. Like Don I guess there’s I I remember watching it but there’s some reference like they live in Ossining. So, it’s a very you know, wealthy area. And all of the sudden Puharich has what’s considered like a mansion there basically. Huge house. He moves there. He tells his family that basically he just got this contract to study ba- basically like more of what was going on at the Round Table Foundation but there were specific people who needed him to move to New York. So, they move there. I mean, his family life is a whole different thing. He he had um his his wife sadly committed suicide around this time. Yeah, he was very like, you know, distraught about that and and
🎙️ What happened?
🎙️ I received a grim call from Jenny’s father. Jenny
🎙️ had quietly left from the hospital roof into eternity. I wept for Jenny. I wept for my failure to keep her healthy and happy. I wept for our three daughters who would never know a normal upbringing. I cried out to God in crushing despair.
🎙️ But so they moved to New York, he starts this company
🎙️ [snorts]
🎙️ called Intelectron. He gets a Annie Jacobsen helped figure this out. He gets a a grant for $300,000, which at the time would have been like at least a million dollars or more um from the Atomic Energy Commission, which is strange. And we have all the documents that we found that prove that they went and visited him, they gave him this grant. So he starts this thing Intelectron, which is basically labeled as a a biomedical research company. So they have an office in a Hell’s Kitchen. And again with Puharich, I just it’s it’s I have to to stress like there was always these instances in his life, this one being the really the first, but it was sort of the round table, too, where like all of a sudden he just has this company and this and the and these employees and this fun, you know, all the sudden it’s this, you know, kind of expensive to have a big office in New York City and all this stat all this state-of-the-art at the time electronic equipment and
🎙️ Well, it sounds like a classic intelligence world front sort of stuff.
🎙️ Well,
🎙️ How does that guy have a huge hedge fund?
🎙️ Oh, yeah. He just always had and it’s always this company
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ and basically and this was early ’60s now ‘62 ‘63 this is when he starts the the hearing experiments where basically he claims that deaf uh people would come into the office and they would do research on them and basically they designed a a device which would enable deaf people to to to hear basically by emitting a certain frequency that would somehow bypass like the the normal way we hear and go directly to the hearing center in the brain and it was this breakthrough medical discovery which you know, go figure goes completely quiet. No one No one ever hears about it.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ Um but that’s when he first starts this whole you know, radio frequency stuff voices in the head kind of stuff which again was under this you know, we’re researching on deaf people where we’re doing this you know, in a medical sense we’re helping people but that’s when these you know, men in suits show up. That’s when once again he’s getting contracts from Navy uh CIA again almost everyone that was involved at the round table was back in this Intellectron situation with him and so that I think the connection I mean I don’t want to just jump to conclusions but I think what I’ve often thought with this JFK thing and why to Melanie his assistant seemed like such a big deal is that it may have had some tie in with a mind control sort of like a Sirhan Sirhan situation with Lee Harvey Oswald. I mean I know that’s like a pretty crazy bold claim, but that’s just just what I’ve thought.
🎙️ It’s not that
🎙️ Because they were doing that. This is we’re talking And again, this is something I don’t think a lot of people know. And I think people don’t realize a lot of that MKUltra stuff happened much earlier, but they were doing this work in ‘62, ‘63 of like send basically sending messages to to people’s heads, you know. And and we have footage, we have I mean, it’s it’s real. The people from the Atomic Energy Commission write very clearly in letters we found like we went Annie Jacobsen talks about it, I think, in her book like one of the guys is like, “I don’t believe you, you know, test me.” And just and and and did the test on himself and it worked. And then it it goes it goes dark. And Intellectron closes. And all of a sudden, it’s on to the next sort of, you know, mysterious company.
🎙️ Deep black program
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ some other front company. That’s really really trippy. Is there any explicit connection between Lee Harvey Oswald and Intellectron or that’s sort of speculation on your part?
🎙️ looked, but I just think, you know, if you want to go there, it’s like like Lavenda says the whole connection there at the round table and then this weird incident where they seem to make a big deal about telling him about the assassination at that exact time, that exact year, they’re researching ways to to be able to send messages to someone’s mind to do something specific, Manchurian Candidate, etc., etc.
🎙️ Apparently, Dulles did not want the fact that Ruth Paine had actually been at the summer house or whatever. I think that summer, right before JFK was assassinated. He He did not want, you know, that at all on rec- record. I think Mary Bancroft like started to talk about it and he like, you know, he kind of acted like he didn’t know what was going on when like, you know, he he would have reacted earnestly if if if he hadn’t. He clearly did know what was going on. Obviously, Dulles was probably you know, among a very short list of people if you you know, if you the intersection of capabilities, motivation to to take out JFK. Dulles has to be on anybody’s short list. And then the further kind of steel man there may be being a there there. We know that Jack Ruby was an MK Ultra patient. I mean, like 95% you know, like you have letters between Jolly West and Sidney Gottlieb, who’s definitely the kind of architect of MK Ultra, you know, and and Jolly West was, you know, UCLA psychiatry, but clearly very involved in Operation Midnight Climax and maybe brainwashed Charles Manson. And he sees Jack Ruby, who never remembers killing Lee Harvey Oswald, in his jail cell alone, no cameras, comes back comes out and says uh Jack Ruby has had a psych- a psychiatric break. And then Jack Ruby, you know, who was fully lucid but just didn’t remember having shot Lee Harvey Oswald, talks about Jews dying outside of his cell and just like literally cracks. Um so, very very strange, you know, possible connections.
🎙️ Well, the other really strange thing at this time um was that Puharich was working with someone uh named Jose Delgado, who he probably might know who that is.
🎙️ Delgado, old friend of mine, a brilliant researcher from Spain, implanting radio receivers in the heads of bulls.
🎙️ Delgado has remote control of the animal.
🎙️ Do you realize the fantastic possibilities if from the outside we could modify the inside? Could we give messages to the inside?
🎙️ He was a guy from Spain. He was a researcher. He was involved with a lot of this sort of mind stuff in the ’60s, late ’50s, ’60s, but I think he’s mostly known as somebody who did experiments with implanting putting an implant in the head of a bull and basically being able to remote control a bull and basically say go this, stop, go left, go right. He was able to do it. There’s literally footage of of the experiment happening. Uh, and Puharich we later found out was was close friends, as Puharich says himself, with Delgado. We found letters between the two of them uh, during this time. And it was nothing too sinister. It was mostly like, “Hey, I’m going to go to this conference. Are you going to be there?” But they clearly were close. I mean, there’s some people I met during the process of this who were like, “Don’t don’t even go there and don’t talk about the connection he had with Delgado.” But, you know, I I was interested to
🎙️ fascinating. You have a guy who’s being able to pacify a bull and play the bull like a video game. And that clearly was the heir to MK Ultra, which was mostly sodium pentothal, LSD, that sort of thing. It’s chemical based. At if if if in the early ’60s, we had chips that could control animals, and you had heirs to MK Ultra, like MK often, which were done, I believe, at the Science and Engineering Institute, um, in the Northeast as well.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ It’s like what of course, you know, we’re going to be way more advanced on that stuff now. It’s It’s creepy to think about. It’s one of those things you don’t even want to think about it cuz the second you do think about it, you get into reality being far weirder than we could ever imagine. So, yeah, if you think, okay, they’re putting an implant in the head of a bull, like you say, basically remote controlling the thing, why wouldn’t you try to do that to a human being? I mean why why wouldn’t you? And I think that was going on at Intelectron. I mean I I’m I’m sure of it because there’s this way too many There’s way too many connections. I don’t have a document that says here’s the experiment we did, but um that whole decade of the ’60s was such a odd decade for Buchholz. He was so like quiet. Like all there’s all these records of the round table, you know, tapes, photos, everything. All of a sudden you get to the ’60s it’s like very nothing really. Very little documentation, very little, you know, photographic evidence of what he was up to. And all of a sudden the ’70s boom picks back up. There’s 100 photos. So it’s very mysterious decade and it was just it just so happened to be when he had this company Intelectron.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ With these very odd connections, Delgado, that
🎙️ I think it’s becoming super clear that
🎙️ And the other thing too
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ not to cut you off is I I’ve with all this stuff in this film I’ve gone to like the ends of the earth to try to track down nothing absolutely nothing. This place never existed Intelectron. You would not find The only thing I ever found was there’s a guy pretty interesting guy actually his name is Beardsley Graham. He was involved in NASA in the ’60s and early ’70s, colleague of Buchholz, but he was like I guess he was somehow involved in Intelectron as like an outside consultant or something. And in his archives at Berkeley there was like a a couple documents that had, you know, Intelectron letterhead and it was like correspondence. And that was like the only thing I could find and even in that it was nothing revealing. It was again it was just like records and sort of like you know, financial records which which again didn’t point to anything.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ You know, so so there’s just this place did not exist. But it very much did.
🎙️ you know.
🎙️ much did. Well, it’s I mean, now it I feel it’s one of these things that’s slowly shifting, you know, and I I think more and more people are going to start to recognize the fact that MK Ultra had a role not only in the JFK assassination, but in the RFK assassination. You mentioned Sirhan Sirhan, who had written in his diary right before he shot RFK, just like over and over. It was like some neurolinguistic programming was coming through him. To this day does not remember having shot him. He’s like, you know, I must kill him, must kill, you know, sort of thing. And you have RFK Jr. now who’s head of the FDA. He himself has gone deep on his father’s death. You know, I think he was 14 at the time. And I think he recognizes that he was actually shot from the back and not from the front. So there was this other gunman, again, just like JFK. I think he thinks that, you know, MK Ultra was involved. You know, this guy William Jennings Bryan, not to be confused with the 1890s William Jennings Bryan. Um was this kind of mysterious deep statey figure who I believe was tight with Sirhan Sirhan and Um so I you know, I I think these things are going to start to come out that uh MK Ultra was far more pervasive than than we ever realized. And there’s even a book called I don’t know if you know about this book, The Controllers by Martin Cannon.
🎙️ Yeah, yeah. He mentions uh Puharich in that.
🎙️ So let’s This book is insane. What What’s the What’s the thesis of this book?
🎙️ Uh
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🎙️ What what’s the What’s the thesis of this book?
🎙️ Uh it’s basically about this idea of the the fabrication of alien abductions, right? That’s at least a big part of it.
🎙️ Some of them being chip implantations done basically for MK Ultra purposes.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ And and people being tricked into saying, “Oh, you like this is your guardian angel or whatever.” And you know
🎙️ Well, there’s a whole thing. I We can go We can get to that later. But, the whole electron thing basically to cap that off, it was Yeah. One of many of these these very to me a big came very obvious fronts. I mean, there’s just no question about it, you know. Um that that he had and they were doing all that type of experimentation. Again, there’s footage of them doing um an experiment on a woman. There’s no sound, but it’s obvious what’s happening. You can see, you know, she’s in the other room. She’s behind a wall. They’re in the other room. He has his device that he invented in the early ’60s called the TD 100, which I’ve told you about. And this basically enables like a certain frequency to be sent to somebody and, you know, it’s kind of like a a a situation where if you’re exposed to this frequency, it’s as at a certain wavelength that only you can hear and anyone else around you can’t can’t hear. And this kind of ties into what he was doing later in the ’70s, but they’re doing experiment on on a woman using this and it’s very clear what’s happening and it’s very clear it’s working. This was this was like Neuralink. Basically.
🎙️ And you could you could you could send or implant thoughts.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ To a person.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ And that’s crazy. And so, how exactly did it work? You played a tone and then you would
🎙️ Well, there’s two things. One of the things he invented back then, too, which again was Puharich says himself was classified and you’ve probably heard of this is the tooth implant.
🎙️ A device could be inserted into one of your back molars That acted as a transducer that could send signals across the facial nerves into the hearing centers of the brain.
🎙️ It took about a a month of of daily therapy, they would have their hearing improved significantly.
🎙️ It was extraordinary because it was a totally new way of understanding how we hear. You could send signals to someone secretly. It had a lot of potential.
🎙️ We gave a demonstration at the Pentagon. We fitted this device to this general, and we had somebody out in the hall broadcasting, and he turned and got damn it, I hear it. God damn it, I hear you. The bastard did it.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ It was basically a radio receiver that would be uh I guess at one point it was Buhar’s kind of says it says it as though you could slip on some sort of thing like on to like anyone could just kind of like slip this thing on their tooth, but in other instances it was very specific about it being like a like a real like cap, what do you call it? A molar or something that would really be put in your tooth and that would basically uh be able to receive a radio signal. It would pick it up here and it would send it through the nerves of the face that would basically connect to whatever area in your brain. Uh you register you know sounds and So so you could be again in you could you could clearly see them doing this and this was very short a short distance. Like I said, a woman right across the the room. And you can clearly see they’re they’re they’re able to do it. So you can imagine if the research continued, at what length can this go? Can this be in another town? Can be another state? Could it be in another country? So that’s what they were they were experimenting with. But, so the first part of it was the tooth where you could send a message to the the tooth implant, hear it in the head. And the second part was uh an offshoot of that where basically, from what I understand, you sort of bypass the whole tooth thing. And it’s a very specific radio frequency that I guess you can’t tune into like uh on a normal frequency band or radio. I mean,
🎙️ Do you know what frequency?
🎙️ No, he doesn’t talk about it. There’s a lot
🎙️ that would seem to be extremely classified would be my guess.
🎙️ a lot to with sine waves.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ I must say I I must say again, like I’m this is not my forte.
🎙️ Sure. Sure. Sure.
🎙️ A lot of this I stumbled into. I don’t But, it was this idea that again, you would bypass the tooth and the and the and the frequency would essentially just be sent directly to the head and be picked up in that same area that the tooth was essentially connecting to.
🎙️ Yeah, just to also substantiate what you’re saying to the audience who might think we’re crazy. Uh I mean, beta as early as Beethoven, he was deaf and he used something called bone conduction where he would bite on to a conductive rod while he was playing piano. That would bypass his ear canal and the vibrations would literally play in his brain and so he would like de facto be able to hear his own playing without actually kind of, you know, hearing it through his ear canal.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ So, that is a thing. Uh there’s a story of there’s a kind of apocryphal, but I think substantiated story um around Lucille Ball who had just
🎙️ I’ve heard about this.
🎙️ Yeah, it’s in the Telepathy Tapes.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ And she had gotten a tooth filling or whatever and she’s driving and she starts to hear the radio in her head because she still has metal in her teeth. I think there’s a story with Puharich where some guy works at a metal mill or something.
🎙️ Yeah, that was his first um aha moment is that they got a mental patient, a guy who claimed he was hearing voices, but his family’s convinced he’s he’s, you know, sane, and we’re worried because they want to put him in a mental hospital, and we don’t want that to happen. So, you know, can you check him out? So, they they bring him in, they get to know him, and he Yeah, he says, “Okay, I work at this metal factory where I guess it’s basically just a grinding metal pieces and and this kind of thing.” And he Jacobson talks about it, too, in her book.
🎙️ Puharich’s theory was that this metal dust had somehow collected on his teeth. And in essence, acted like a radio antenna.
🎙️ We found out he was tuned to the station WOR in New York.
🎙️ [laughter]
🎙️ And they put the mental patient in their Faraday cage, which blocks out all electronic signals. And the mental patient suddenly is no longer hearing voices. He’s like perfectly sane.
🎙️ And sure enough, soon as we locked the door, the sound ceased. Open the door, the sound would come on.
🎙️ That’s pretty remarkable of Puharich to think that all through and to test it in the laboratory.
🎙️ And that kicked off like all of this research where it said, “Okay, well, if that’s possible, like what else is possible with that basic idea that that’s you know, real.”
🎙️ Yeah, and if you can bypass the ear canal with vibration, whatever is processing the audio ultimately in the brain, we know that you can turn molecular mass into frequency. Everything has a {quote} “resonant frequency.” This sounds woo-woo, but what I just said is fact.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ Could you then use some sort of electromagnetic, you know, radio wave or some wave that connects directly to the brain? And that kind of gets into freaky territory because you end up in sort of psychic warfare, you know, that’s ubiquitous or whatever and widespread. Like it’s kind of weird to think about. But I mean, if you’re saying that was possible back then, it’s just wild. And then then you mentioned sine waves. I just interviewed a guy named Dan Sherman.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ And you texted me when you saw the interview because you said it you felt like it kind of comported with a lot of the stuff you’d been studying around
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ Puharich. If Puharich is doing this stuff in the ’60s,
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ then it kind of makes me believe the Sherman stuff a whole lot more, which was happening in the early ’90s
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ around messages he is downloading. But it maybe it does beget the question, you know, is the Sherman stuff genuinely, you know, extraterrestrial or were people beaming messages that were extraterrestrial to test the veracity of the messaging or whatever through him? And I don’t know, you know, I don’t know the answer that question. I I don’t think he was lying, and I think the program is real.
🎙️ The genesis of it was in 1947, we came in contact with an alien species, and and 1960, they started a a project that was called Project Preserve Destiny, and um it was designed to genetically manage fetuses, human fetuses, so that they would have the heightened ability to do this particular thing that I was going to school for. And he said, “I’m going to play a tone, and I want you to mentally hum that tone.” And he said that you will eventually feel a connection, the line will change.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ When I saw the sine wave move, I went, “Oh, okay, well, there’s a mental disconnect there that that’s not supposed to be happening. That this is not this is not possible.”
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ Do Do that it was kind of a development from um you know what you were looking into with Puharich?
🎙️ I had to imagine it was. And that’s always the question, you know.
🎙️ You said there were a lot of sine waves. He literally says I had to flatten a sine wave.
🎙️ When I saw that the the uh sine wave move, it it is like it came into focus this thing that that I was doing in my head.
🎙️ That’s why I that’s why I reached out because again, like for me a lot of this was okay, I have all this information. I’m not a you know, I’m not a a physicist. I’m not I most of this stuff, but I’d have to imagine it’s connected because it um Puharich, the way this machine worked as well had something to do with specific sine waves, very very specific. You know, he was always talking about sine waves. And so I just I can’t imagine that that wasn’t some sort of early interpretation of of what what he was talking about.
🎙️ And you have this machine that you like where you like you’re matching tones and stuff. I mean, that sounds exactly like
🎙️ Yeah, it’s all tone it’s all tones. And then the thing with the machine is again, um and like you said sounding crazy like for a long time making this film, you know, like I had to really grapple with like that a lot because I knew what I was hearing and and sort of not so much researching cuz a lot of stuff we got were like tapes of these experiments. So it’s not just like I’m reading a report, you’re hearing it. So I’m hearing you know, these channeling sessions. I’m hearing these experiments he’s doing in electron and you know, you can just tell something’s going on, something strange. And so you’re right. I mean, I think like if that was happening in ‘60, ‘61, ‘62, I mean I don’t know. And this gets transitions into the Uri Geller stuff which I believe is very much involved in that same sort of research.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ Um but
🎙️ How so?
🎙️ Yeah. Well, I think um it’s my belief that uh Geller was was sort of like a um mind control guinea pig in a way.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ Uh there’s a lot of context that would that would prove that that was what his sort of role was in this whole
🎙️ Well, explain that.
🎙️ That’s That’s fascinating.
🎙️ Well, he um So, basically Puharich uh in the ’60s we had Intelectron and the thing is too with this device he invented the TD 100 it was called which was called Transdermal 100. But um again, this was supposed to be this breakthrough you know, medical device where where people who are deaf can can hear, you know, think about what we could do with this, but it just goes like again, he never talks about it. No No one ever in his family Oh, yeah, I wonder whatever happened to that. Like you would think that with such an amazing discovery like something would have come of it or it just like went went dark basically. Probably around ‘68. Um he never talks about it. Again, only way later in his life he never ever talks about it. Of course, we learned he was using it with his space kids years later that nobody knew about that, but um So, he’s the he’s coming off the tail end of all the Intelectron stuff, right? Right when he meets Geller. Like literally it was 1970 is when he first hears about Geller, goes to Israel. Intelectron is still happening then. I mean, from what I understand like it was still very much, you know, an operating company. So, he’s going to Israel to meet Uri Geller while he’s still very much involved in the research of essentially sending messages to people. And he gets to Israel, he discovers Uri Geller. I mean, I think a lot of people know the story, but you know, Geller was was allegedly this very amazing psychic guy who could bend bend spoons with his mind and read people’s minds and do all sorts of things like that. He could like re- hover his hand over a watch and the and it would the hands would move and and all these kinds of things. And so
🎙️ Do you believe he could actually do those things or do you think that was stage magic? Or
🎙️ Um all I can say about that is he did bend a spoon for us when we did the interview and I don’t know how he did it.
🎙️ Well.
🎙️ So, that’s all I can say. It could have been a trick.
🎙️ And you
🎙️ Uh and I can’t to this day figure out how he did it.
🎙️ You know the easy debunks on things like that. Are you okay? Yeah.
🎙️ Yeah, so all I can say is like yeah, it could have been a trick.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ But it was definitely kind of strange and cool and he did do it. But um he So, Puharich, you know, again, the story goes Puharich was kind of smitten wi- with Geller and oh my god, this guy is, you know, an amazing psychic. I’m in- I’m interested in psychic phenomena. I want to study him. So, he brings him back. But what people don’t really know uh unless they read Puharich’s book on on Uri Geller, which is kind of like a rare book to to come across, but he uh has this whole episode in Israel before he even brings him back to the United States where he basically hypnotizes Geller and you know, the nine come through.
🎙️ Really?
🎙️ And all of a sudden, after however many years, you know, 53 from when Dr. Vinod did it to to 71, and guess what happens? Uh he starts channeling the nine, Uri Geller. And so Puharich is, you know, shot up apparently shocked and you know, I can’t believe this is happening. You know, there’s all these tape recordings we have of of this uh going down and that kind of kick starts again the whole nine thing comes back into the picture through through Uri Geller and all of a sudden they’re like back, you know, and he’s channeling them channeling them and he’s communicating with them but it’s very strange because Puharich as I just said was still very much involved in the Electron company which as we know was experimenting with being able to send voices send thoughts to people and so one could assume that Uri Geller was a, you know, experiment in that way when the nine just so happened to reappear all those years later and it’s also strange because I think a lot of people know like Geller has claimed his involvement with Mossad and his Israeli intelligence and all these things there’s reason to believe Puharich may have been a double agent for Israel in fact he says he’s he says it
🎙️ Really?
🎙️ tape but he kind of says it in a jokey way and so I had always just stuck to me like okay is this a joke or something
🎙️ found any connections between him
🎙️ Uh yeah
🎙️ Israel?
🎙️ Yeah
🎙️ What what were the connections besides Uri Geller obviously?
🎙️ Um well he so we did tons of like FOIA requests trying to trying to find stuff on him and like basically got nothing but the only thing we were able to get was this big chunk of FBI documents which was basically monitoring all of his movements in Israel literally page page after page he just got here he’s leaving he picked this bag up he did you know in the exact years he’s he’s going there to see Geller so that that there’s that and then um multiple people who knew him who never really said anything until much later in their lives, um, told me that he he was Mossad.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ Again, I there’s I don’t have a document or something like that that proves this. Um, and then Puharich also mentions in a, uh, letter he was writing to, uh, there’s a good friend of his, this woman who kind of helped him with bookkeeping and stuff and she was like his closest confidant. And he would write these letters to her all the time. It’s very clear that they were close. You know, he spoke with her very differently than other people, but he, um, basically admitted to being part of a Israeli US, um, mind con, you know, mind control program that was happening at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, which is a, you know, is an ar- is an army base and I read that and, you know, again, what what do you make of it? It’s either true or for some reason he’s making it up. I don’t know why.
🎙️ It’s fascinating.
🎙️ So so he wrote that and then in this tape, um, he he kind of jokingly says, “Oh, I’m an I’m I’m a I’m a double agent uh, for for the Israelis.” And and he also was always there. You know, that’s the other thing. Like yes, he went to to to investigate Geller, but, you know, he was even through the ’80s, like well after him and Geller kind of parted ways, he’s always going there. Um, on a lot of the channeling tapes that are happening in the ’70s with the space kids, he’s he’s referring by name to Israeli generals.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ This one guy, uh, Aharon Yariv, who was, I think, the head of, uh, army intelligence. Very You can look him up. I mean, he was constantly Should we, uh, give this information to Yariv? Always referring to him and other people, um, high up there. So, a lot of red flags, nothing, again, no concrete, you know, document or something, but uh, it’s strange. And I I don’t know. I mean, again, that’s something like after all this time, I’m still thinking, okay, what what was really going on there, you know?
🎙️ Fascinating, man. What do What do you think when when he goes to Israel initially to see Geller in 1971 and he it’s Geller’s kind of channeling the nine again. Is it like the nine or somehow like he has a protocol to like summon these specific nine extraterrestrial beings? Is it this cynical hypnotic technique that he’s doing where he’s implanting this idea of nine extraterrestrial beings or what do you think that is? Is he Is he calling in something that exists in reality, these nine, you know, entities, or is he creating those entities synthetically?
🎙️ First of all, just to quickly mention like this this idea that Puharich is very, um, there’s always two stories, right? So, when he went to Israel for the first time in some lecture, uh, we have, he said, oh, you know, there was this parapsychology foundation and they wanted me to go, so they scraped some money together and I they I was able to get a plane ticket I went to I went to Tel Aviv and then that’s how I got there, right? And then Geller himself said, oh, yeah, no, he he was sent by the CIA, like directly. He he was consulting for CIA, that’s why he came. And then someone else, uh, close to Puharich said, oh, yeah, like that he was CIA, that’s why he went. But, in this lecture, in fact, twice in two separate lectures, Puharich, when he he kind of tells the story to an audience, you know, and he says, oh, yeah, they just, you know, bought me a ticket, this foundation. So, you know, again, a little thought in my mind where I’m like, okay, who’s who’s telling the you know?
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ I think it’s obvious, but um but with the nine, I mean, so yeah, it it all did come from from hypnosis. That was the protocol. It was a very, you know, your typical countdown from a certain number. Um once you get there, you know, you’re in a state where they can come through. And I do think, again, like I mentioned earlier, it kind kind of having to accept some of these darker parts of the story. Like I do think uh to some extent, like he was implanting this idea.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ Because you can you can I mean, you can hear it.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ I mean, again, this isn’t like speculation. Like on the tapes, you can very much hear him saying, you know, is it is it the nine You know, the the type of like leading questions I think that a lot of people think say, oh, you know, you can’t trust a hypnosis if they’re doing this. And it was it was it was that. It was very leading questions. And are you sure it’s not the nine? And oh, actually, yeah, you’re right, it is. And that kind of thing. But what’s so confusing is there’s there’s a lot of other sessions he did where it was like not like that at all, the complete opposite, you know, not leading at all.
🎙️ Mhm. And the nine would still come through.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ So that’s interesting.
🎙️ Yeah. And that always goes back to the crux of the heart of like, okay, what what was he Yes, he believed in this stuff, but yes, he was also involved in
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ very by his own own minutes, you know, involved in in MK Ultra and all these things. So it’s like, what
🎙️ Believer, master manipulator. I mean, I I usually I mean, clearly he was manipulative somewhat.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ I usually get to the end of these questions thinking it’s like a yes and like an improv or whatever. It’s it’s usually not like one neat solution kind of explains everything away. Yeah. You know, one neat solution that would explain everything away would be You could think of the Archimedes lever of reality itself and it’s mind control, right? Like that would explain like aliens reverse engineer like so many things.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ Um but then you you get into like the facts and the facts are just weirder than you think often. And it’s it’s like, well, I actually think there might be these other beings that come in and in certain cases he’s not asking leading questions and
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ but it’s uh it’s it’s fascinating. He also he isolates specific um extra low frequency waves that he thinks are particularly powerful as far as implanting thoughts, is that right?
🎙️ Yeah, there’s uh and again, this was interesting because his uh research into, you know, ELF, extremely low frequency, you know, that was much later, like late ’70s, ’80s, he was very involved in that, but I figured out like once again, like this origin point of the Roundtable Foundation, like he was researching this stuff back then. Like this very specific extremely low frequency that can he figured out like penetrate the walls of a Faraday cage. That was like the only uh you know, frequency that could do that. You know, they went on to use that frequency with like submarine experiments. So, that he believed was like the frequency that could carry, you know, audio information to somebody’s head.
🎙️ Uh
🎙️ And he’s very concerned that the Soviets had similar capabilities?
🎙️ Yeah. I mean, there’s, you know, Project Pandora, which started in I think that the ’60s, which, you know, going back to Intelectron, that was right around the time this was happening, which was, you know, yeah, the same thing, the Russians had these sort of radio frequency weapons, which which, you know, they did. I mean, that’s all pro-proven at that time. I mean, this is like pre-Havana Syndrome stuff. And so coincidentally, you know, at Intellectron, they’re doing a lot of that same stuff. I do firmly believe that that Geller was some sort of guinea pig for these experiments because it it’s just too many weird red flags around this time that he meets him. And I think And again, I could be totally wrong, but I think that there was just this you know, we need to experiment on a real, you know, human being with some of this stuff. And again, it goes back to this MK-Ultra, the, you know, LSD, you know, giving LSD to unwitting people. Like at a certain point with these kinds of experiments, you need to you know, do it on a real person, or else we’re never going to know how someone in, you know, the real world will react. And I think Geller, you know, was was part of something like this because there’s a lot of experiments they did where um there’s a story, for instance, where Geller allegedly uh teleported. So, he was walking down the street in New York City 1973, I think. He claims he’s walking down the street in New York City, gets a weird feeling, right? All of a sudden, he wakes up and he’s in Ossining, New York, which is, you know, uh however 50 miles or whatever. Uh and and he crashes through the the screen porch. There’s footage Super 8 movie footage of of Puharich filming the screen porch after this allegedly happened. It’s all smashed through, right? And Geller allegedly winds up in Ossining. He teleported. And from New York City, and Puharich claims or told Geller, “Oh, yeah, this happened. And the nine did this.” Basically, you since you were questioning their ability and their power, they said, “Well, we’re going to do something that will make you you know, never question us again. And they did this teleportation, right? And the weird thing is again, like the length Puharich went to to actually get a you know, again, people don’t remember this was like 70s like get a load of film, you know, put it in the put it in the camera, film, get the get the film transferred and and be like hey look, I actually filmed when you right after you flew into the window and here it is. It’s it’s proof. So, you know, he’s he’s he’s doing that, but I I I that was just one instance of me thinking like okay, like this is a way to get somebody to believe that some crazy event like that really happened. And Geller believed it. I mean, he he talks about it. He wrote about it. And I think later in his life he he he started to question everything. And he even came out with a statement on a radio show in like 2019 saying that Puharich had experimented on him with with mushrooms and had experimented extensively with him uh uh with with hypnosis. But again, like that story is crazy. And he and I think it’s like okay, like if you can get somebody to believe that they had been teleported and smashed I mean, what else could you get someone to believe? And I just think it was all part of that type of experimentation. And Puharich himself way later in his life, like I said, when he starts to kind of reveal things, he says himself, I was involved in a program and my boss was the guy who did all research with hypnosis and mind manipulation. So, you know, he he was doing it and I think a lot of the Geller stuff was just like okay, we need a guinea pig here to to see if some of these wild ideas work, you know? So
🎙️ So wild. I think there’s a story, too, that Geller tells around him meeting Wernher von Braun, and Wernher von Braun taking him to his a safe that contained some UFO artifacts, maybe from Roswell?
🎙️ Yeah, well, Wernher von Braun, again, was um somebody close to Andrija Puharich in the ’60s, specifically.
🎙️ Really?
🎙️ Yeah, his assistant, the same one I told you about who made the JFK comment said, “Yeah, he he talked to him, you know, all the time.”
🎙️ What?
🎙️ was yet another person who was just kind of part of his, you know, Rolodex. But, yeah, I think Geller said something to the effect of, yeah, he showed him um some photographs of um of, yeah, something from Roswell or or revealed to her facts to him and
🎙️ And I think he showed him material, and I think he felt like he had a telepathic connection with the material.
🎙️ Wernher von Braun takes me into his personal office. There’s a safe in the office. He opens the safe. I see a piece of metal. I’ve never seen such a color. Pulls it out. It’s not heavy. Says, “Uri, touch this. Tell me what you feel now.” I put my hand on it, and I say, “Wernher, this is not from here.” He says, “You’re right. This is a piece of a UFO that crashed on our planet.”
🎙️ Did did uh so, wait, so like he he knew that it was not from here or something? Like, he showed it to him, and he goes, “It’s not from here.” And he goes, “How did you know?” So, it’s you know, some of the It’s so interesting.
🎙️ The other thing, too, and this goes back to the the Controllers um book, a lot of the stories, and again, keep in mind, this is all pre-coming to the US, going to SRI, everyone knows that stuff. This is in in Tel Aviv before any of that.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ And he, another story like this teleportation one, there in um the Sinai Desert,
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ they’re driving around in uh in a jeep,
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ and they’re they see a a UFO. And Geller, all of the sudden, I mean, Puharich’s book on Geller is fun to read, you know, in and of itself just cuz it’s like it’s just like a cool crazy sci-fi book, if anything, yeah, even though it’s supposed to be, you know, non-fiction. But he claims that this UFO lands, Geller goes into like a trance, boards the the UFO, comes back with like a pen and said or something like a pen and basically said, you know, all that these these beings told me to keep this cuz this will forever be proof that I I uh you know, went on this craft. But the same thing, it’s always like, oh, he’s in a trance before this happens, you know, apparently. And then it’s that same idea of like he believed it. And Puharich kind of substantiated, oh, yeah, you know, we saw it land and we saw you walk on it and
🎙️ What?
🎙️ But then it always goes to that question like, why again, you could just say, oh, well, they wanted to experiment with can you get someone to believe in or just kind of framing it around this ET UFO thing. But it’s always like, why why do this, you know, why why was he doing this?
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ Uh you know, I don’t cuz again, there’s no concrete proof, oh, Geller was a guinea pig. He was he was a subject. Like I’m just kind of putting the pieces together, but it just seems to me that it’s like, let’s take this UFO ET framework and do these kind of mind manipulation experiments around that
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ and see, you know, see what what people can believe and uh
🎙️ You also get into weird territory where it’s like it does again the MK Ultra thing just explain everything, which is like such a dark version of the truth, but it’s possible. We have to entertain that.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ Or is does MK Ultra actually converging on a technique that the, you know, extraterrestrials or NHI non-human intelligence already has mastery over vis-a-vis its ability to like manipulate human beings. Like I think of one of the most credible cases for me is a guy named Mario Woods who was at Ellsworth Air Force Base in 1977 in South Dakota. And he was a a missile security officer. And he’s just like a really upright great guy. And he thought you know, like this sort of like B-2 bomber was like kind of winking at him in the distance. He and his you know, teammate or whatever his colleague Michael Johnson go in this little Jeep and they follow it. They get there and it’s this like huge like plasma orb that’s glowing. It’s red hot and it it’s the size of a a Walmart is the the line he always says. It’s sort of this crazy iconic line, you know, and um and he ends up nine being transported nine miles away from the base like behind a dam. And it’s like that it’s the next morning. He has no idea what happened. And all all he I think had remembered was beings walking toward him saying do not fear, do not fear. And then he gets a hypnotic regression and he realizes that you know, possibly he boarded a craft. And what’s really interesting is he says that after when he gets sort of you know, debriefed they check his teeth. I think he said that like the guy checking him now said that there was some sort of ambient radiation in his mouth or something from that time. It’s really sort of crazy.
🎙️ Um yeah, that is
🎙️ [gasps]
🎙️ the tooth thing is really strange and there’s a lot online about um there’s a story about a an individual who changed his name in fact cuz he didn’t want to be associated with this, but this was um so so post-Geller, right? So, so Geller Lee basically they they kind of split up. Get Geller wants to to move on. And again, way later in this 2019 interview, he he kind of opens up and says like, “Yeah, I was kind of like afraid, you know?” And he really opens up like, “I didn’t know what was kind of going on and and I was suspicious and I just wanted to get away basically from this guy.” And so he, you know, but he was famous at that time anyways. So, he leaves. Puharich is you know, trying to find another subject to bring through the nine, he claims. So, this is even pre-Phyllis Schlemmer. He’s right around cuz Phyllis Schlemmer was sort of the next channel that he he discovers that that brings through the nine. But before Phyllis, there was this guy in Florida, where Phyllis was from. She knew this guy. He was part of a psychic class that she she taught. And again, I’ve heard from a lot of people that this woman Phyllis was like a legit psychic, you know, knowing things about people and so forth. But there’s this guy that she knew. She introduces him to Puharich. They do a bunch of experiments. Yeah, sure enough, he puts him he hypnotizes him and he is communicating with not the nine, but he’s some other being. Can’t remember the name. But anyways, this guy says, you know, “I got really really weird vibes, you know, etc.” but lo and behold, he wakes up when he realizes he has a metal filling that he never had. And he goes to the dentist and says, you know, “What What’s going on here? I didn’t get this done.” And they they looked at it and said, “Yeah, this was done um you know, professionally. There’s no question about it.” And oh, complete side note, the guy that Puharich uh ran into Electron with was a dentist that he met in the army. So, this guy discovers a um a filling he never had. He completely freaks out and and leaves the the group that is Puharich, Phyllis. And and it’s sad and again, this always comes back to this like not avoiding the the negative stuff. Like, apparently the guy went like, you know, crazy. He he just had like a mental breakdown. There’s a couple other people in the the sphere of this story that this happened to. But, that’s like a real story. And the guy you know, and he brought it up to Puharich and they said, “Oh, you know, we don’t know what you’re talking about. We this we weren’t involved with this.” Or I think, you know, actually I think what they said was, “Oh, you know, this was done by the the beings you’re talk They wanted this to happen and they they did this somehow and and so, it’s very bi- bizarre. You know, um but that goes back to the I mean, what you just told me is crazy because this was early ’70s. So, there might be something going on with this this two thing. And you know, again, I think the film does a good job of this or I hope it does is is, you know, I don’t believe or and especially don’t want to believe that MKUltra is responsible for everything and all of this stuff cuz there’s a couple stories in Puharich’s life that, you know, do seem like legitimate sort of extraordinary encounters. For instance, um in the late ’80s, uh Puharich lived in North Carolina. And he uh there’s a story that a bunch of his family was visiting, a bunch of his cousins and uh people who, you know, are very skeptical about all of this stuff, skeptical of Puharich’s whole world. But, some psychic uh that that night or that day said later tonight, you know, I just got a a message that like a UFO is going to show itself over the house. And so we have the video. Puharich’s son Andy, who’s an awesome guy, he he did this kind of like funny video where he interviewed like all the people who were there at the at this family gathering and said, you know, what do you think’s going to happen? Do you think it’s going to show up? And everyone said, oh yes or no. But that night um multiple people
🎙️ saw this huge
🎙️ What?
🎙️ UFO. And Andy tells the story and he like he gets emotional telling it. And he’s a again a totally sane guy, you know, of course his dad was Andrija Puharich, but like he’s he’s very normal saying guy. He said, yeah, of course, you know, the camera wasn’t out cuz it was much later in the night and again pre-iPhone of course, you know, you got to run in and grab this bulky VHS camcorder, but apparently like him, that Puharich’s son and two or three of the cousins all saw this huge thing. It silently hovered over.
🎙️ So wild.
🎙️ And that and and his son again very emotionally says like that was the moment I said, okay, like I I believe in in this stuff. And and I believe in in in things my dad did and he just had a very emotional reaction to that moment. So it’s stories like that where I go, okay, well you know, what Puharich isn’t running some MK Ultra experiment on his family, you know, decades after all this stuff. So so yeah, I don’t want to put this idea out there that you know, I I think that way. I mean again it’s just there’s too many red flags in his story that sure point to his involvement, but then there’s that story where even his cousin who didn’t want to be interviewed or whatever, but I did talk to him and he was like, yeah, that happened, you know.
🎙️ Well, I think there’s something it’s like everybody sees the world through a perceptual prism or container and I’m sure with his hypnotic techniques and with MK Ultra and with implants and all these things, you can break that container and then probably intentionally shade or manipulate what people experience.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ But the idea that there’s nothing outside of that perceptual prism that involves other entities between man and God or you know, whatever your metaphysical beliefs are, I think also involves some sort of
🎙️ hubris. Like you know, you can you can have both.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ But um it’s
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ This is I mean This is one of the craziest interviews I’ve ever done, man. This is crazy. I mean I’m I feel like shocked like listening to all of these and I’m just thinking as you’re talking about Puharich’s son and this UFO showing up. Um what was night cuz I think of 1952 as the you know, DC flyover Washington invasion. Like maybe the most intense uh UFO showing in the United States history as far as mass media covering it. People seeing things. You know, I actually recently met a a witness from 1952 and and and he was pretty amazing and he remembers it and stuff. He’s one of the probably last living witnesses.
🎙️ Wow.
🎙️ Um
🎙️ That’s amazing.
🎙️ Yeah. But do do you think that had anything to do with the seance cuz I think of the seance with you know, the original channeling of the nine?
🎙️ It was 52.
🎙️ Do you know what month?
🎙️ Uh it was It was um New Year’s Eve.
🎙️ Okay. Well, that mean it was before then because it the So that the again, I don’t want to engage in any sort of you know, selection bias here, but this is July 1952 was when
🎙️ It was.
🎙️ the thing showed up and so
🎙️ But a lot of that early channeling with Vinod, that was all you know, 52.
🎙️ Interesting.
🎙️ Yeah. Into 53. I mean it could have been and I told you like he he wrote in in journals about these orbs and one of the psychic psychics say, you know, go outside tonight and you’re going to see an orb and you know.
🎙️ Well, every every time I want to get away from like the occult having to do with UFOs, it’s like it’s just so obviously does have everything to do. And there’s there’s even a group called the Borderland Society which was
🎙️ Oh, Borderland well, which one?
🎙️ The Borderlands research society.
🎙️ Yeah, Hugh Archer was very involved in that. In fact, a lot of the recordings we have not a lot but some of them came from from them. They were really they were they had a bunch of stuff saved actually.
🎙️ So, there’s a really amazing like kind of nuts and bolts UFO researcher who I think did some software stuff for SpaceX. His name is Richard Geldreich. And he he has uncovered like a couple of UFO either crashes or appearances where the Borderlands Society knew about these UFO appearances before the military did before the army before the air force. So, and then you have you know this 1933 magenta crash which it seems like it’s getting increasingly corroborated. David Grusch, Harold Malmgren both talk about it. And Hugh Angleton and James Jesus Angleton were there and you know, maybe there’s some occult stuff going on there
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ with the Knights of Malta or you know, who knows but
🎙️ know, Puharich was a master Mason.
🎙️ He was.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ Interesting.
🎙️ And he tells a story in a lecture much later in his life about how he was always approached by these you know, what he would call kind of dark occult groups and and societies and people trying to like get him to join and he he didn’t want anything to do with anything and that kind of thing.
🎙️ Well, Wernher von Braun was also I believe a Freemason and he had gone through all these weird neo-pagan rituals as part of the German space program. He was also close with Walt Disney and I think they they made a little movie together and there’s some free Masonic symbolism there. There’s launchpad 33 in real life that he sort of created and that uh my buddy Danny Jones just did an interview with one of the last living Apollo astronauts, Charlie Duke, and the number one moon landing hoaxer person, Bart Sibrel. And Danny on the phone with me is like, “Dude, I’m not sure that the early astronauts weren’t MK ultra’d.” And it’s weird, you know, and it’s like you have, you know, a picture of Jolly West on the set of 2001 Space Odyssey. You have,
🎙️ There is?
🎙️ Yeah, yeah, yeah.
🎙️ I did hear about that.
🎙️ Yeah. Yeah. And so
🎙️ That’s insane.
🎙️ It is insane. It is insane. And and then you have these, you know, it’s like Neil Armstrong looking like, you know, he’s in a hostage video. Joe Rogan describes it like that. You know, after he comes back from the moon. And so you have to wonder if there’s some sort of like weird my you know, and if Puharich I didn’t know Puharich knew Von Braun. You have the one of the MK ultra architects
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ in touch with the head of the American space program. It’s weird.
🎙️ Well, the other thing too with the the NASA connection with Puharich is again in the 60s um he was doing like a ton of like contract work for all sorts of um different agencies. But so this is actually in newspaper articles we found, but they were doing like telepathy uh experiments with with astronauts. And and Puharich claims this. I’ve never heard it. We don’t have the tape, but he claims that they before they went to the moon, right? They didn’t know the surface of the moon, what it would would be like really. So they were saying, “Okay, how can we land a craft? What we we don’t What could it be? Hot? Is it going to Is it cold? Is it uh Is it spike? Whatever.” So he he claims that they sent remote viewers to the moon to get a picture of like what it would be like uh so they would feel comfortable with like sending whatever, you know, if if they went to to to send to to send stuff there. And he says, “Yeah, you know, somewhere in the NASA archives, I’m sure there’s the tapes we did where we recorded this psychic kind of remote viewing the moon.” And and he and he had the contracts in NASA. Like, we don’t we have one that doesn’t say that, but he clearly you know, worked with them. We have we have documentation of that.
🎙️ Didn’t NASA also have a camp around with space children or whatever psychics?
🎙️ Yeah, I’ve heard a lot about that. Um but I don’t I don’t know much about that. I mean, I know about obviously Puharich. We can get into that, but yeah, I’ve heard a lot about that that there in the late ’60s there was some somewhere in Florida there was like a NASA thing with kids. But I don’t I honestly I don’t
🎙️ I think Gordon Cooper might talk about that.
🎙️ Oh, dude, Gordon Cooper was very involved with Puharich.
🎙️ So
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ [laughter]
🎙️ So this is one of the This is the guy who spent longer in the Earth’s orbit, you know, in space than anyone prior to him in the late ’50s and yeah.
🎙️ Yeah. He went to Ossining like many times and in his book he writes about um going there, seeing experiments with the Faraday cage, seeing the space kids. Um yeah.
🎙️ Why was he so interested I mean, why was a NASA astronaut interested in psychic research?
🎙️ Um I don’t know. I mean Well, I think Coop Gordon Cooper, I mean, didn’t he have some UFO uh stories or experiences? Or at least he was open to talking about that stuff.
🎙️ And some something on the craft flying overhead and pretty good altitude and flying the same kind of formation we’d fly in our 500.
🎙️ Were they planes? Tell me what
🎙️ Well, it turns out they didn’t have wings. They were saucer shape. And we never could get as high or as fast as they were. So, it’s really positively identify them, but they were metallic looking and saucer in shape.
🎙️ Yeah. So, he was definitely like in interested in this stuff and and um Yeah, so he went up there. Uh everyone went up there. I mean, the whole Gene Roddenberry thing is crazy.
🎙️ Yeah, so [laughter]
🎙️ The creator of Star Trek
🎙️ Yeah, so so that’s like something I read about and you know, I thought, “Oh, that’s interesting.” But in Puharich’s archive, sure enough is the tape that no one’s ever heard of this session that is kind of like crazy to to to be in possession of. But basically, they would do these kind of round table-esque uh channelings where like back then, these prominent people at the time, we’re now in mid-70s, would come there, spend time there, and they would do these sessions. And Gene Roddenberry went up a lot. And he makes mention on this one tape recording that like you know, he says like, “Like I’ve said many times in the past.” which would indicate that this wasn’t the first time he was a part of like a channeling session with them. But yeah, we have the tape. It was um Roddenberry, Puharich, and Phyllis Schlemmer was the channel, the channeler. And you know, she he he does his thing. He he hypnotically regresses her. Um she goes into uh a trance. She starts channeling the Nine, and Roddenberry is there. And it’s like an hour or 2 hours of him asking questions about
🎙️ And that becomes the plot of Star Trek, or
🎙️ Well, I wouldn’t say the plot of Star Trek it started. I think it would I think people think of Deep Space Nine.
🎙️ Uh-huh.
🎙️ Which that came out post these sessions.
🎙️ Uh-huh.
🎙️ And um that, you know, of course, nine. And then there’s a character in Deep Space Nine who’s called Vinod.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ Just like the early nine channeler. So, there’s no question like that that’s connected. And they actually wrote uh I have it and um I don’t know what will ever come of it. It’s a It’s a long story, but Gene Roddenberry wrote a script called The Nine. And it’s all about his a key changed the names and locations and the whole premise is his experience of working with Puharich and Phyllis channeling the nine. And we have an original copy of it and it’s like amazing. And from what we understand like Roddenberry at the time was going through a lot with like I guess he was like drinking a lot and I don’t know all the specifics, but it just like it you know, as as stuff in the in the movie industry does it fell apart or whatever and and it never happened, but uh he was moved enough to write a whole, you know, 130-page script about about his experience and it’s called The Nine.
🎙️ So trippy.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ And you have
🎙️ should make it maybe.
🎙️ Yeah, there you go. Yeah, yeah. If you have a hit hit Greg up if you’re interested.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ [laughter]
🎙️ There I mean, you also, you know, you think about the Star Trek you think about the you know, the Galactic Federation.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ That’s mentioned in a couple of real-world contexts, too. One of which being um you have Haim Eshed who you know, has won multiple the highest, you know, national security awards in Israel. He’s basically the uh founder of their space program and their their equivalent of Space Force and was I think head of it for decades.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ And he just writes this autobiography where he talks about uh the Galactic Federation.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ And so, do you think there’s something like more real going on that in in that like the heads of various nation-state space programs are aware of here?
🎙️ Uh perhaps.
🎙️ Yeah, [laughter] perhaps.
🎙️ Does he mention anything about the nine, too, or
🎙️ Who? Eshel?
🎙️ No, I know.
🎙️ he did okay, he did okay.
🎙️ Okay.
🎙️ But um the other weird connection to um Israel Puharich and everything was uh he was close with uh Yitzhak Bentov.
🎙️ Oh, yeah.
🎙️ Who’s, you know, a really interesting guy. Um there’s some videos on YouTube of him. He’s kind of like the Israeli Puharich. He He kind of looks like him and, you know, they have the same vibe going on, but they were they were good friends. Uh I don’t know the specifics of how they met. Apparently uh Bentov was, you know, instrumental in hooking up uh Puharich with Geller. I don’t know the truth to that, but um Well, they definitely knew each other cuz there’s photographs of Geller, Puharich, and Bentov in an apartment in Tel Aviv together. But you know, Bentov is interesting because he worked for Israeli intelligence. I mean, that’s that’s a fact. And they And Puharich was, again, like I said, going to Israel a lot at that time. And he was always tape-recording their conversations. Like him and Bentov would sit around like you and I are right now, and they would record all their conversations, which you know, is not weird, necessarily, but also you know, why would you do that and then save the cassette tapes decades later? So, you know, there’s a lot of clues like that that goes back to that Israeli connection. And And Bentov was one of a number of um scientists who were being tracked at, you know, Puharich’s house burn burned in 1978. Um to this day, no one really knows who did it, but it was a proven, you know, arson job by the the fire department. And [snorts] Bentov uh around that time was also being monitored. Putnam was being monitored. There’s this big like this circle of kind of his friends and colleagues were all claiming to be to be monitored, be followed, harassed, and so forth. Um, and there was some story connecting a possible Israeli connection to this 1978 fire. Um, but yeah, that’s a big big question mark. I mean
🎙️ And Bentov died in a plane crash, I believe.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ Sort of super mysteriously. He was uh friends with a lot of the Stanford Research Institute and early psychic, you know, research pioneers.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ And claimed to have this kind of theory of everything. He writes a book called Stalking the Wild Pendulum, where individual consciousness is kind of a pinched node of some larger fabric of consciousness or something.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ And uh fat fascinating guy.
🎙️ Yeah, they were close. Like I said, there’s a couple tapes of them just like literally talking, and they would just record it, and they would talk about all sorts of things. Mostly, you know, their their uh shared interest in in consciousness and stuff. But, you know, then there’s this other theory that Putman could have not been a double agent and and and simply just a spy.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ And going to kind of pick off information or hey, we’re we’re buddies, we’re into the same stuff. We should tape record our conversations.
🎙️ was CIA and Bentov was Mossad or something.
🎙️ Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, all I know is that stuff exists, and you can put it together how how you want, but you know, I’ve told a lot of people, and again, it’s not because I sort of fear for, you know, anything, but we we really don’t Maybe it’s deliberate. Maybe we’re not supposed to have found anything, but we we don’t have any sort of like legitimate document or anything that really nail. And I think that’s what’s interesting about the the film and the story in general is like you still question there’s still research to be done into this because we don’t have the definitive answer of what’s going on. We just have all this all these strange breadcrumbs over several decades that would point to
🎙️ Well, I think the most interesting you know, pieces of of media or journalism beget more questions often than answers, especially if you’re cutting to you know, the deeper architectures of reality.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ And I often think you should be kind of skeptical or distrust you know, people who are like they’re so sure it’s just X or it’s just Y, you know, and in this case it’s clearly this kind of murky subject. But that I mean that makes it that makes it so fascinating, right?
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ So you just want to go go deeper and uh
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ Um
🎙️ I think that the sign too of the whole Galler thing being like I mentioned earlier like him being involved maybe willingly in these kinds of experiments, you know, but he he um yeah, he he really opened up. I mean anyone can hear it. I don’t know maybe it’s been taken down, but it was this radio interview from 2019 and he he was very open about you know, I was I was scared. Um and he always uses the term like Buğra made me believe this. He made you know, and and he and he does credit Buğra says, “Look, you know, I’m I I I love the guy. He helped me he helped me get to the to America.” Um so it’s not like he’s he hates him or he speak, but he he’s very clear like you know, at that period like I was I was concerned about what was going on. He mentions being pretty sure that uh Buğra had slipped him the mushrooms. So, you know, there’s that. I mean, I I don’t think he’s he’s making that up.
🎙️ No.
🎙️ I think it was like, all these years later, I think he wanted to come clean or
🎙️ Sure.
🎙️ about about like what he really experienced is the vibe that I got from.
🎙️ He’s a wild character. He is a very flamboyant online personality. He’ll often make these videos directed at world leaders. So, Trump, don’t push that button or Putin, stand down or whatever, you know, I know what’s going to happen and he’ll like predict the wild things happening and um,
🎙️ Well, he was doing that in the ’70s.
🎙️ He was.
🎙️ Like like again, this this this idea that you could use this directed thought to to change somebody’s uh, opinion or change somebody’s direction or
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ And any he talks a lot about doing that back then. Um,
🎙️ I have a friend who worked at the Princeton parapsychology lab and whenever I try to throw the kitchen sink of skepticism around like he’s just a stage magician and he’s, you know, I don’t I don’t know how legit he is. He often says, you know, and I think they’re they even have like a some papers where they studied him at Princeton and
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ I think it’s often again like these people have something that’s a little anomalous going on and they play it up, you know.
🎙️ Yeah, I that’s really actually my again, with everything I said prior to him potentially being the sort of subject, but no, I I actually firmly believe that he was one of probably you know, a lot of people out there yeah, who have something. And again, it’s just like, can you turn it on every time? Can you Can you perform in every instance someone asks you? I mean, no, you know, I’m not a psychic. I mean, I I don’t I don’t know, but I would assume like you can’t do it in 100% of the time. Maybe you can do it 60% of the time. But I think that about him because I’ve heard enough stories um through all these people I’ve talked to and stuff who were like, “Yeah, he he had something, you know.” I think he liked the idea of the the showmanship and but yeah, he definitely had something going on.
🎙️ Speaking of people with gifted, you know, psychic abilities,
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ uh who are the space kids?
🎙️ The space kids are uh well, there’s a lot of them and we only were able to track down and interview um one, two, three, five of them. But basically, when Geller was kind of blowing up, this is like mid-70s, early mid-70s, uh apparently, the story goes that these kids all over the world, um specifically in the United States and the UK and in and in China, which are just the the the stories that we were able to kind of look into, but these kids would see um Geller on TV and all of a sudden like that would uh cause them to just spontaneously like do something psychic. Like they would they would pick up a spoon, it would bend.
🎙️ Wow.
🎙️ Or they would, you know, go into the room and the the the drawers would all you know, poltergeist stuff, right? And there’s a ton of newspaper articles at this time, which again like okay, it could have all been a hoax, whatever, but you know, it’s like parents calling in uh the TV station, you know, Pullarits claims like saying, “What the hell is going on here, you know, my kid just did this, my kid just bent a spoon, my kid just, you know, touched the the the refrigerator and it short-circuited, you know, all sorts of stuff.” And apparently, it was because they saw him on TV and and something happened, something clicked and they their psychic abilities just kind of like came out in that moment.
🎙️ It’s like a contagion of
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ psychic
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ powers.
🎙️ Yeah. So, that’s apparently what was happening. And so, Puharich, of course, you know, learns this, and he’s very intrigued. So, he starts to, you know, visit some of these cases of kids who are doing this. And um eventually, I guess it’s so uh eventually, he’s so convinced that that this is real, and that these kids actually have this sort of like sudden emergence of ability that he um brings them Well, again, a lot of people have this idea. There’s a lot online about how he like collected all these kids, almost like a X-Men kind of thing, which is partially true, but mostly like he would lecture and and and, you know, all over the the country and Canada and in places. And and people and and we say kids, we’re talking like teen, you know, early Apparently, there were like some very young, you know, five, four or five, six-year-old kids, but the ones that we’re dealing with in the film are all, you know, in their early 20s, maybe 18 youngest. But, they would see him at a at a lecture, and they would they would approach him and say, “Hey, you know, we got to talk. Like, I have I have these abilities, and and you are obviously the guy who knows about this, and and you I need your help, basically.” Like, they would kind of go to him. So, [snorts] at that point, he thought, “Okay, there’s enough There’s enough stories and enough of these kids coming to me that like I should start a research program.” And so, that’s when he sort of collects like a large group uh of of kids. I think it was like Again, online, there’s all sorts of stories, but it was really only like maybe like a dozen kids, I think. Give or take, but he he kind of invites them to to Ossining, where he’s, you know, living, and and starts this sort of camp, where basically they are just doing psychic research on these kids. And I think, again, not unlike the earlier Vinod roundtable stuff, like a lot of conspiracy stuff pops up at this moment, too, because of the general nature of kids showing up at the house of a, you know, known intelligence connected scientists, etc. and so forth. But, um, basically he collected them and just started this camp where they did, you know, kind of went through the different abilities, tested them, and and that all led to getting back to the nine, because a lot of these kids claimed they had some sort of encounter or or you you know, UFO experience. And so, Puharich said, “Okay.” Kind of like grouped them, “Okay, all the all the kids who’ve had an experience here, you know, not.” And so, all the kids that had an experience, he would hypnotize them. And allegedly, the nine would come through even through these kids, who most of which never knew about about the nine. And and most of which were kids who, like, you you hear a lot with these experiencers, like, they didn’t want to talk about it. You know, they didn’t want, you know, fame, or they they were just like, “I’m actually scared, and I want to know what’s going on with myself.” You know, they weren’t trying to like, you know, do anything more than like, “Can you help me figure out what’s going on?”
🎙️ After after you’ve looked at this for 10 plus years, do you think that the nine coming through these different experiencers, abductees, people who’ve seen UFOs represent something real that’s sort of, you know, non-human or extraterrestrial coming through these people, or do you think that these were sort of synthetically implanted or kind of manipulated by Puharich?
🎙️ Uh I think it’s I don’t want to say synthetically created. I think what was going on at this time and this is um we’re talking ‘74 when this started, ‘73, ‘74. And keep in mind this is right around the time the SRI remote viewing stuff starts. Yeah. And keep in mind how Puthoff tells us that he went to Puharich’s house in Ossining, heard all about the nine, and that Puharich was apparently communicating with this thing called the nine.
🎙️ Wild.
🎙️ And then didn’t really say much.
🎙️ Has Hal Puthoff never talked about this?
🎙️ No. I mean, in the film he does.
🎙️ I got to ask him.
🎙️ But um he basically just tells the story about well, quite frankly, he was quite closed off when it came to the the subject of all this Puharich. Um so, I don’t know. I wasn’t there at the interview, someone else did it. I mean, he he was great he did it. But he basically was like Puharich was more connected than anyone anyone ever knew and
🎙️ Really?
🎙️ he sort of alludes to that. But he does say, yeah, we we went up to his house footage of him and and Targ at Ossining sitting on the front steps. So, my theory is that and people have talked about this and it’s out there, but I think that there is this sort of and and we know for a fact that Puharich was part of the SRI program. A lot of people Puthoff himself say no, he wasn’t, he just simply brought Geller and that was it, he disappeared. Not true. There’s a a pay stub in Puharich’s archives that is a is from SRI to lab nine Puharich’s lab from 73.
🎙️ Woah.
🎙️ We brought it up to put off. He said, “Oh, I don’t Who knows? It could have just It’s whatever. It’s nothing, basically.” But to me, that that proves he was connected cuz I think the story most people read is just like he brought Geller dropped him off there and was just like, you know, “Have fun, basically.” But I think that Puharich’s house, which was now called lab nine, which again like Intellectron and a couple others he had, which aren’t no use getting into, but he just had these sort of like front companies, which I just think it’s obvious, you know. So yeah, at this time he had lab nine. And I think that lab nine was doing SRI research, you know, on on children because essentially a lot of the tapes are are remote viewing. There’s no other way to look at it. It’s “Okay, what’s going on in this location? What time is this such and such general going to be at this place? When should we go here?” And it was actually Speaking of Adam Curry, I think it was actually Adam who brought up this idea that, you know, a lot of people who go into a trance or hypnosis, you know, there’s there’s a protocol, right? It’s either like a pendulum or whatever it is, a countdown. And I think the nine and and something somehow like this we’re going to connect with the nine thing was like a way that these it was an in if that makes sense for some of these kids to to sort of want to participate because again, it goes back to if you really want to test like a kid’s a a a real, you know, 20-year-old person, is a 20-year-old a better psychic than an 80-year-old? You know, eventually you’re going to have to find a 20-year-old and and do an experiment with them. And I think what was happening was like if you go to a 20-year-old and say, “Hey, you know, especially at the time with Uri Geller being famous, you know, whatever, Star Wars, this and that, and you say, ‘Hey, you know, do you want to be a part of an experiment where you can communicate with these, you know, these beings, and, you know, I can put you in a safe, and I can put you in this this hypnotic state, and you’ll communicate with them?’ Like, obviously, you would say, ‘Oh, that’s okay. That’s that’s interesting. That’s cool.’ You know, you’re not going to say, ‘Hey, do you want to come be a part of a a covert, you know, mind control experiment?’ You’re not going to approach it that way. So, that’s my theory is that that was sort of his way. And one of the space kids, whose name I I I don’t I won’t mention, um she she basically admitted that, where she said something to the effect a long time ago of like the nine was basically just like this sandbox for us to or some some analogy like that, where the nine was basically just like this sandbox for us to to to play in or something. And I And again, it was off It wasn’t in the interview. It was like one of the many phone calls we had, and it always stuck with me. So, I think that at that time, again, you’ve got same years, remote viewing experiments are starting at SRI. You’ve got the connection to SRI via some sort of pay stub going directly to lab nine. And you’ve got all these young kids who on the tapes are doing remote viewing. So, But the the question I want to push you on this is like remote viewing is used it for the US from ‘72 to ‘95 and probably now
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ to like actually add to our intelligence abilities about real things. Draw up Russian nuclear bases, find hostages, you know, whatever. Do you think that this Council of Nine were real, you know, extraterrestrial or non-human beings communicating through these space kids? Or do you think the Nine was being implanted and they were testing their ability to sort of manipulate thoughts and that was through the Nine or whatever and they had some some, you know, I mean, clearly they did have some abilities to do that.
🎙️ The the the the evidence would point to the latter. I mean, that’s that’s the best way I can answer that.
🎙️ God, that’s crazy. That’s a
🎙️ And that would go back
🎙️ very deflating, I’m sure, for a lot of the UFO
🎙️ Well, it is and again, like I don’t want to come across as this like negative skeptic person as I’m not, but again, it goes back to like if you’re trying to be serious and piece together the life of this guy that spans decades like and then that’s what you’re hearing, uh you know, that’s what you that’s what you have. That’s your source.
🎙️ what is if you are saying some of the protocol to get people into this state involves uh saying, “Hey, you’re you’re contacting the Nine.” and whatever. It’s some protocol and it sounds like a hypnotic technique.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ But then some seem super open-ended and they just seem to connect with the Nine. How do you sort of make sense of that?
🎙️ know and that goes back to the kind of, you know, I think uh Jeffrey Mishlove brings this up of this sort of uh trickster element in the kind of paranormal phenomena where like sometimes they’re they’re tricking you and sometimes it’s real, sometimes it isn’t. I think there is, you know, with Buhlman like again, it’s always that question of like where did he stand with like is this real research that he passionately believes in and he’s trying to come to some sort of you know reality of of the ET phenomena or was it just all MK Ultra you know and again I I don’t think it was all MK Ultra mind control stuff but there’s some gray area there that is so hard to pin down because again in some of these um sessions and and this is strange is is that on some of the sessions you know he’ll be like okay here we are with this space kid and then there and their mom is here and she’s you know you this is like the tape recording we’re hearing and and on those sessions it’s like you know typical okay the nine um the you know the world is beautiful we need to save humanity etc. etc. Then there’s other tapes that are like you know what time is the best to to remove you the Kremlin so we can get into it you know
🎙️ Woah.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ Crazy.
🎙️ think it’s there was a way of like okay I need to kind of you know give an example to to maybe other people around to say hey look this is what we’re doing okay see you sat in on a session so now you know what it’s like and then when those people aren’t around it kind of gets to the the serious stuff is again what it this is what I’m you’re hearing what I’m hearing it’s all based off that it’s not like really my personal
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ um you know hardcore beliefs it’s just like oh okay this is what I’m hearing I think anyone would kind of conclude that
🎙️ Yep.
🎙️ but again I think Puharich like and and this is a big part of the film and a big part of my philosophy about him and his story is like I think he believed I know he believed in in a lot of paranormal stuff, but I think he got sort of under the thumb of the uh you know, intelligence world early on, and I just don’t think that he could kind of get away from that. And I think, you know, you often hear it’s like the mafia, like you don’t just leave. And when you’re when you’re that involved as he was, you know, to just say, “Hey, I’m I’m I’m good, you know.” And I so I think that there was a lot of pressure on him to do some of this negative stuff that he may have otherwise not wanted to do. And I think that’s like a big part of the film and what I wanted to kind of get across with it is there’s so much negative conspiracy stuff about him out there. I mean, there’s tons of it. Have you ever read the Stargate conspiracy the book? It’s really good. It’s um it came out in the ’90s and it was the first book that really talked about a lot like this this book had the story that I told you about of the guy in Florida who woke up with the the tooth implant. And then this is the first book that really exposed basically saying everything he ever did was intelligence involved. You you know, he’s just all he’s an awful person. He’s an evil genius. But uh you know, it’s not true, and I think that I hope to get that across in the film, and I think we do because like a big part of that that research, I don’t think he wanted to do. I think he he in a way was forced to do it, you know.
🎙️ Yeah, and whatever this kind of amorphous blob that is the UFO legacy program that is always proverbially discussed, but you know, usually in a very kind of high-level fuzzy ways. I think that’s probably the case with a lot of these people is that they were kind of sucked up into In certain cases, they probably came upon really exciting scientific truths that were converging on things that, you know, some, you know, behind the the the iron curtain science, you know, uh, group in the US, you know, uh, during kind of Cold War secrecy era already knew. And and and they would recruit these people and then they would probably be forced to, you know, work on things in contexts that they weren’t particularly happy about and didn’t feel idealistic about. And
🎙️ I’m sure that that’s the case with him. Because I I again, like I don’t want to, um, uh, come come across as someone who’s trying to like put him out there because I’m not. I mean, like I got to know his family really well. I’m like very close with them. And and they were great when I showed them the sort of final product, which really gets into this stuff. And they were like, you did a good job because you didn’t shy away from from that. And I think, you know, you illustrated it well. But, you know, they were even like, “Wow, there’s so much in here we had no idea about.” Like we literally had no idea. You you were telling us stuff that we never even heard before.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ that just goes to show his own family was in the dark about a lot of it. But, you know, the nine again, like I just keep thinking I think about it a lot. And I again, like the the answer just is I don’t know. But, what I’ve heard and what I’ve had access to that came directly from his personal records would indicate that it was it was a made-up a made-up thing. Fascinating.
🎙️ Well, that I mean, that in and of itself seems a little messed up. As does, you know, slipping somebody mushrooms or, you know, telling them they’ve been abducted by aliens and taken aboard a ship when they haven’t or quote-unquote teleporting them and throwing them through a window and they you know, like these things aren’t cool, you know.
🎙️ Uh
🎙️ No, and again, like I think if you watch if anyone watches footage of Bu Har Cha lecture, he’s the most jovial, funny
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ night, you know, like he’s not this like monster person. And that’s why I quite frankly think makes him like interesting and an interesting subject for a film because like he’s complicated and he he’s he’s again, I think being sucked into these things that he would otherwise not want to do any and not to ruin the end of the film, but he basically like admits that. That he basically admits like that is what was going on with him.
🎙️ Yeah, well the
🎙️ warns future researchers basically like don’t do what I did. Essentially is what he he is message is.
🎙️ If you look at the Zimbardo prison experiments at Stanford or whatever where they you know, these prison guards start to get really self-important or it’s Stanley Milgram’s shock experiments, you know, it’s a and then you combine that with the you know, the the the power of the CIA at the time, I’m sure you could get coerced into doing all sorts of things and does that fully exonerate you like probably not, but uh it’s uh yeah, I mean, I think the the the the best version which I think your documentary really gives is the nuanced one where which shows how somebody could get incrementally walked into a a position like that.
🎙️ And there’s just no question the level of um you know, how how deeply connected he was to intelligence. I mean, there’s there’s a paper trail of it. So there’s this there’s no way to kind of beat around that bush. I think again, I’ve just I’ve read so much online and there’s a lot of speculation, but at the end of the day like those people don’t haven’t seen the materials that you know, we had. So
🎙️ It’s so interesting. Were there any other experiments they were obviously channeling, they were using these sort of Faraday chambers, they had this machine that produced tones. Any other experiments that they were doing with the space kids specifically?
🎙️ Well, here’s what’s interesting is that um and you see in the film like getting back to this idea of the nine being this kind of endpoint just to like get things get things done. Uh in the ’70s, we’re talking ’74s through ‘76, you know, Middle East war, right?
🎙️ [snorts]
🎙️ going on. And Puharich and specifically Phyllis Schlemmer, he was still working with her then, but and and and all the space kids, you know, they weren’t specifically going on these trips, but they would literally have a session, right? with the nine. And they would do group sessions where it would be like, you know, two people at Puharich and two other people, him and three other people, him and six other people. And that would apparently like bring the message through more strongly and and so forth. But um in that time, they’re getting messages from the nine saying, you know, you need to go to Egypt, you need to go to you know, any, you know, Middle East area, you need to go to Russia, you know, and all these places which would otherwise be very difficult for for somebody to just go to during that period. In fact, one of the guys working with Puharich at that time, John Whitmore, he was a British guy who got really involved. Like he even says in an interview like you you you normally could not even get into these countries at this time. Yet Puharich with his psychic were were going constantly. It because the nine said you have to go here, you have to go there. And so he kind of hints at like, well, what was that really the nine or once again was Puharich involved in something else that he had to be in these areas at this time, you know, under the auspices that this was a psychic, you know, this was the nine
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ telling them to go there. Phyllis Schlemmer completely questions everything and you know, way later in her life she did an interview she said he used the TD 100 machine on me all the time. I never knew what it did. I never questioned what it did. And so you just have to ask like how is it that Puharich is able to go to these places during that time, get into very specific locations often involving very high ranking government people and it’s all just say hey the nine told us to come here so we’re here and and so a lot of people speculate, you know, I’m I’ve heard stories of you know, Christian missionaries who are actually spies and you know, something like that going on. Again, it’s interesting to go down that road to think about and nothing we have like concretely proves that but I just think like the more you listen to those tapes at that time and the more you just kind of put things together like it does seem like what if that was that was the cover and oh this guy is so crazy he actually thinks a psychic is telling him oh just let him go. What a what a cook. And meanwhile he’s, you know, doing whatever he he needs to do there.
🎙️ Yeah, it’s using the stigma of the science kind of in your favor as a cover for something more vital that clearly was was actually working and functional.
🎙️ And he actually on these tapes gives this goes back to like the remote viewing stuff of like some of the questions that they’re asking are like you know, what are what is the code name that you know, the the the you, know, Russian gorilla soldiers are using. So, we then know what to pick up on when we hear this code name. So, then that of eggs the question of why would an alien Why would an alien be like asking those types of questions if that’s what you’re supposed to be doing according to the nine. But, to go back to the the the the constant contrast is like he really was a genuine believer because he would often go um to the the Great Pyramid in the in the same time and [snorts] do like all sorts of experiments there.
🎙️ Really?
🎙️ And he just loved going there. Like he was obsessed with the pyramid. He’s obsessed with the history, all the the Egyptian gods. Like So, you know, that’s not
🎙️ And there are nine There are specifically nine Egyptian gods.
🎙️ So, that was something he was like obsessive about. He would he they we have tape recordings of him meditating in the King’s Chamber
🎙️ What?
🎙️ in ‘76. And he did experiments with um uh one of the space kids in the pyramid and they brought through this information. Apparently, they’re channeling this Egyptian god and some pretty weird information lined up during that session. So, then that goes back to like it’s almost like, “Okay, I got to I I have to, you know, do my job for the CIA and on my off time I I can go in the pyramid and and do do some cool stuff I’m interested in.” That’s just kind of what it seems because like again there’s no mind manipulation dark stuff going on there. It’s it’s it’s very clearly him like, “I’m going to meditate in the King’s Chamber.” Like what what does that have to do with, you know, MK Ultra? So, I just think like and again, this goes to like his death and the mystery about around that where I think like there was a situation too where he may have been you know, on payroll for, you know, XYZ intelligence agencies and going to do these things but kind of using that time to do other things he wanted and maybe that was he he shouldn’t have done that and you know
🎙️ And you think they took him out as a result maybe of that?
🎙️ Yeah, I think part of it is that he he cuz again he’s going to Egypt right? Because the nine are saying you have to go here you have to go to this location to meditate this and that but I think he’s going okay, well, I’m already in Egypt and there’s the Great Pyramid and I’ve been wanting to go in there anyways, so I’m already here. I’m going to go you know, but he’s there maybe on on a mission and hey, you know, don’t screw around kind of thing. I think there was a lot of that going on and his death is completely mysterious.
🎙️ What what happened?
🎙️ You can see the stairway light for this window where my father allegedly fell down and they found him right at the bottom of the stairs. We don’t really know um
🎙️ What to ask?
🎙️ what killed him.
🎙️ Well, so there’s a couple of things. He he was sick at the time um but not I believe not enough that would have caused this to happen but basically it was 95 and around this time he was very vocal about his life like he was doing these sort of lecture tours at sort of parapsychology conferences and stuff and he was being very open about his past and and it was one of these lectures at that time where he said, you know, look, I’ll admit it. Um I worked for this part of the CIA. My boss was the guy who was directly involved with all the hypnosis mind manipulation stuff.
🎙️ his boss?
🎙️ Uh he doesn’t name his boss but I would you know what he might actually let me think. He does. I have to think about it.
🎙️ Did you figure out?
🎙️ Yeah, yeah, I it. Trust me. It’s just in my crazy
🎙️ Yeah. head Puharich head. But, but I’ll I’ll remember it. But, um basically And so, he says, “Yeah, that’s what I did. I was a I was a I was a consultant at the time.” And so, he opens up about a lot of that stuff. He He literally says, uh “I can produce in your mind the image of of um an alien experience.” Um his assistant What? at the time was a woman who was on this this tape that Dick Russell recorded I told you about. And Puharich was in the hospital. There’s a part of the tape where Dick Russell goes outside. I think they’re having a smoke or something and he’s and he’s just kind of like, “Hey, look, you know, give it to me straight. Like, what’s going on with this guy?” And she she opens up, too, and she says, “Yeah, he told me about things he’s done that he he he’s worried for his life about saying.” She says he, um using flashing lights, using all all all of that stuff was able to create the the the UFO experience. That that stuff was all created, she says. So, what? She was opening up about that on this tape. And so,
🎙️ So, he would like stage UFO showing up as well?
🎙️ what she’s I think what she was getting at is what we were talking about with this this controllers um idea is that Yeah, like kind of I guess more implanting the the the idea that you’ve had an encounter or, you know, you’ve been abducted or something. Like, he was involved basically making the point he was involved in that kind of stuff, that kind of research. Um And again, you know, you’re going to ask like, “Why I Why?” You know, like, “Why was it always like the UFO thing?” But um But all that was going on like right before he died, you know, that tape was recorded less than a year before he died. But um he he was found at the bottom of the stairs. He fell. And he he passed away and at the time he had all these um he was still and again this goes back to like what did he really believe? He was still living with this group of like women who were like psychics apparently and he he they lived with him and he was still like, you know, he was doing stuff with them or whatever. But but conveniently that day they no one else was there at the house uh when they were usually always at the house. And Puharich has this like weird legal pad that he wrote like very soon before this this incident occurred where he he fell on the stairs where he’s basically like outlining why he thinks he’s being monitored. He names people that he believes have come into his life who are who are there to basically harm him and take him out. He claimed again this is either like the work of someone completely paranoid or somebody who’s just totally telling the truth.
🎙️ Well, it’s right before he fell down the stairs mysteriously.
🎙️ He claimed that they this this and again it makes sense cuz these psychic people would kind of like show up even to this day and be like, “Hey, you know, you should study me.” and this kind of thing. So he he he was a nice guy again so he would want he would let people in and he would welcome them and so he claimed that there was a people like that who were actually, you know, basically out to get him and that they installed this ELF uh emitter in his television set so when he would turn on the TV, he would get hit by this you know
🎙️ Uh-huh. ELF that would be and he and he was a physician. He was a medical doctor, so he would know what was going on with his own body and he writes in this legal pad like, you know, I am this is happening to me. I can tell. He would test himself every day.
🎙️ But he also developed a lot of these techniques, right? They’re using what he developed on him on him.
🎙️ Yeah, I mean if again if this were to be believed which I quite frankly do believe what he says in this. But he basically has this legal pad and he and it’s all these events kind of leading up to why he believes they’re they’re out to get him basically, right? But um yeah, coincidentally the day he’s found, you know, there’s no one at the house and um right before not right before that, but a few years before before his death, he had been approached by the CIA to head up a ELF research uh department basically. Again, he writes this. I’ve I’ve found some evidence that to to prove that this this probably happened. But there was apparently a department being set up just to to study ELF um you know, weapons and so forth. Again, a lot of that was going on in the late ’70s and he he said no and apparently some argument ensued and he said, you know, get out of here and then cuz they came to his house. He’s kind of recounting this in his notes.
🎙️ [snorts]
🎙️ And um the guy that he said came on behalf of the CIA to talk to him is a guy we know was involved in the CIA.
🎙️ Who is that?
🎙️ It’s a guy named Bob Beck
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ who’s in the who’s in the film. Um and he was another Puharich type where where he got roped into a lot of things I think he wasn’t necessarily wanting to to do, but um so So happened where he he refused that and said, you know, no. You know, get the hell out of here, etc. So all of that stuff was leading up to ‘95 and he was found dead. Coincidentally, you know, the Stargate program ends in ‘95.
🎙️ I was going to literally made that connection in my mind, yeah.
🎙️ And coincidentally, um this guy Grinberg, Jacobo Grinberg,
🎙️ Yes.
🎙️ who there’s a great film, shout out to Ida, my friend who made this great film about him. Um in ‘95, uh less than a month after Puharich dies, he this guy disappears, Grinberg. When if you see the film, um the story basically is he was involved in very similar research, basically was able to prove a lot of this psychic stuff is real, and to this day they don’t know what happened to him. He they’re still a missing person. So
🎙️ ever meet Puharich?
🎙️ Yeah, they met. When Puharich was in exile in Mexico after his house was was burned, uh they were they met in Mexico. In in less than a a month after Puharich was found dead, Grinberg disappeared. So again, what do you say? It’s all coincidence, and you move on, or you say there’s something
🎙️ So bizarre. Yeah, Grinberg the the whole thing about him is like he realized we live in a matrix, and then he had left the matrix or something like
🎙️ What was interesting about him is like again, it’s it’s it’s literally still like an open case, like they’ve never figured it out. And of course, a lot of people say, oh, you know, he he got sort of kidnapped by whatever government agency and they’re using him. And you know what’s crazy is on some random message board, uh this was like years ago, I saw a post that was somebody like, I know for a fact that Puharich never died and he was he was taken in by the government and he’s still alive and someone I know. And the weirdest thing is A, I was skeptical of that, but I I was like years later I remember reading that and I and I spent hours and hours and days trying to find this mess but I could not find it for the life of me. I tried everything I could possibly do and I couldn’t I couldn’t find it. Um so that was weird.
🎙️ That’s super weird. So it just got erased or something?
🎙️ Yeah, and but that was the that’s like the real theory of Grinberg. Like again, the doc is really good, but there’s like actually you know, legitimate proof that like he he was sort of taken by by the the government.
🎙️ what your friend who made the movie thinks. That he was actually taken and
🎙️ Well, that’s one of the theories that basically everyone involved in this story like agrees with because everything just points to like that.
🎙️ So weird.
🎙️ That happening. So so all that was 95 January 95 was Bucephalus’ death, February 95 Grinberg goes missing, Stargate officially ends in 95, government puts out newspaper articles all over the news, you know, Stargate there’s nothing to it. It was all bunk. Um so and keep in mind Bucephalus at that time was lecturing about all of that and being honest, being open about all the experiments he did with, you know, Stargate. So I think um Annie Jacobsen alludes to it. Like I just think it was this classic, you know, he knows too much and he can’t be he can’t be out there talking and he he’s experienced too much, he knows too much and uh it’s not good. So
🎙️ I could see them seeing him as a liability. Late in life, you know, maybe he feels remorse about some of the things that he did and he’s speaking openly and you know,
🎙️ Exactly.
🎙️ they’re probably just trying to accelerate the research in the in the black. Um what what are some of the wilder testimonies of the space kids that you spoke to?
🎙️ So basically with the space kids like yeah, there there were a lot. Um and again, the reason the film took so long, which, you know, to give my myself credit for because a lot of people are like, “I can’t believe it took you so long and this and that.” But a lot of it was like just getting people to talk. Cuz, you know, you could imagine these people like don’t want to And again, this is what, you know, you hear a lot about this with the UFO abduction stuff. Like these these people like weren’t looking to be in the spotlight. In fact, they didn’t want to be. It took about 2 years for me to basically earn the trust of these space kids who I now consider like good good friends. But that’s what took so long. And I always thought like in order to make a really cool film like you got to get these space kids. It’s like Stranger Things in real life, you know? Like that’s what would make this thing work. And so I was just like convinced we got to get these these people. And we got we got five of them. But again, there was like a lot more. A few of them were like, you know, “Never reach out to me again. I want nothing to do with this.” So
🎙️ What did they say? I mean, that’s what five is amazing. What what did they say?
🎙️ Well, so basically like yeah, what I did was I I somehow was able to track them down just basically through like in Puharich’s archives and things. There And again, on the tapes like he he would say a name or he would write their name. Well, actually in fact, in one of his journals he like wrote all the names of the kids at the time. So it’s pretty easy to like Google people, but um yeah, a lot of the the ones we got were were again, after kind of talking to them and saying, “Hey, I’m I’m, you know, trying to do like a level-headed, you know, portrayal of Puharich. I’m not some crazy conspiracy person. Like after all that, um yeah, they were really open, but um you know, they basically talked a lot about like what it was like being at his house at that time, which again was kind of cultish. I mean, if you want to look at it that way in the sense that like other than the space, cuz there was just all sorts of Sarfattis, Jack Sarfatti being one of them. Like him and his kind of group of physicist people would go up there. It was just kind of like that.
🎙️ Really?
🎙️ Yeah, like a hub of just any all these people interested in this stuff would just go there and like hang out.
🎙️ For people that don’t know, Sarfatti is uh physicist who is pretty well respected and has studied under, you know, very impressive people who, you know, were Manhattan Project, you know, pioneers. And he has a a model of of time travel and and warp drive physics.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ And he he lives in the Bay Area and he’s very outspoken, loves to call people schmuck. He’s written about um in The Hippies Saved Physics uh by by David Kaiser, this MIT guy.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ And um so, I didn’t know he had any interaction with uh uh Puharich. That’s amazing.
🎙️ Yeah, he went to his house.
🎙️ Because he also I believe Sarfatti the way he got involved in this exotic physics that he ended up studying was he claims that as a teenager he was in some gifted and talented education program.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ And he was he gets a call from the future saying you’re going to meet the others, you’re going to be work on like building UFOs essentially, which he believes his work touches on building UFOs.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ And and this is a guy who could keep up with, you know, any top theoretical physicist just in the world. Like he’s he’s a real physicist. He studied under Hans Bethe, you know, at Cornell and stuff.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ And um he uh says he gets a call from the future and then and then you know, they tell him when he’s going to meet the others and then he ends up meeting Hal Puthoff like later or whatever and it’s this weird synchronicity, you know, it’s so strange. So he’s interacting with Andrija Puharich.
🎙️ Well, you know what’s a crazy connection I just thought of? In that story, so the Sarfatti story quickly is yeah, he he got this call from this metallic voice which is what some of the what Geller claims this is well actually but
🎙️ Really?
🎙️ Yeah. So he gets this call from metallic voice that was some sort of you know, alien intelligence but I don’t know if you remember his part of the story where his I think it was his dad or his uncle or something was was involved in the army or army intelligence and one of the people that he knew through a family member that was connected was this guy Wilson Green. He brings up this guy Wilson Green and that guy Wilson Green was working with Puharich in the 50s at the round table doing everything they were doing there.
🎙️ Woah.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ So do you did you ever ask him point blank, “Hey Jack, like was any of your stuff Do you think it was seeded by these sort of you know, mind control people
🎙️ I mean, I think like he’s open about that being a possibility as far as yeah. But I just remember him bringing up that name and and and and Puharich’s journals like he has one where he’s kind of listing all these people. That’s when I first told you about the Towns and Brown connection.
🎙️ This is insane. This is the craziest that yeah, it’s it’s a tell everybody about this.
🎙️ Well, in one of his journals it was just him recounting like he would often go to DC for like meetings. Puharich would and this is early 50s again which weird that the same year you’re channeling the nine, you know, in your lab, you’re going to DC to meet with all these people, but he would just like keep very meticulous journals about what he did, where he went, who he met. And he would just like, “Hey, I met this person today for lunch, met that person.” And so yeah, Wilson Green comes to mind because he had something to do with um think it was the Army Psychological Warfare Department. And that’s the same guy Sarfatti references. But in these journals, he mentions um meeting Townsend Brown
🎙️ [laughter]
🎙️ and spending the day with him. And it’s very brief, unfortunate. Actually, maybe we could do this together. There’s part of the page that’s like so worn you can’t really like read what it says, but it’s it’s kind of a, you know, a brief uh mention that he he met with with Brown and spent the afternoon. He says something like spent the afternoon with him to discuss the law or something like this.
🎙️ I know some kid who like helped, I think it’s called the Vesuvius Project, and he helped decode this ancient papyri. And so I think he could do that, hopefully he could get us this uh you know, this transcript. That’s crazy.
🎙️ So he met him when this was again, I’m I’m positive it was ‘53. Was that that journal. So yeah, he was going there um So yeah, that’s how I I found that out.
🎙️ And and it brings up all these questions of like were people like Wernher von Braun and Brown’s ideas somehow seeded by like MK Ultra adjacent things? Like probably not cuz you have like, you know, Wernher von Braun goes way back to like, you know, early Germany. He’s clearly like a, you know, a rocketry genius like, you know, as a young kid. Um was all was way into this like, you know, like in his in his teenage years. Um or was like you know, if you think about like what would be one of the main use cases of MK Ultra, it would be like keeping secret science sort of on lock, maybe creating some sort of cult dynamics around it, wiping people’s memories when they work on really sensitive like who knows? And Townsend Brown, to me, obviously, I’m very high conviction in his stuff. The audience will give me cuz I talk about him all the time. But I think he’s like the godfather of American kind of, you know, in the black dark science. Like whole tech trees that come from anti-gravity or extended electrodynamics or fifth-dimensional physics. I think kind of arise from
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ Townsend Brown. And so I wonder I wonder what that meeting was like. The time then was weird overall. I think what people don’t realize about the ’50s is like there’s a letter between I think it’s Claude Shannon, who invented information theory, was at Princeton. Information theory is the basis of all modern computation. And William Shockley, who invented the modern semiconductor, you know, at Bell Labs, essentially. And um it was a letter and he goes, “You know, my my friend, you have to meet my friend. He’s really interesting. You know, he’s into all this, you know, interesting science stuff or whatever.” And it turns out he’s talking about L. Ron Hubbard. And so the the the point is is like it’s this weird time where the intersection between the types of people who’d be engaging in like bizarre seances, ESP, paranormal stuff. That wasn’t outside the Overton window like it is today. Yeah. And so Yeah, anyway, do you have How would you speculate on? Do you have you speculated on the connection between Townsend Brown and
🎙️ Puharich? Nothing more than just they were probably interested in similar similar things and and but it’s odd because he said it was in DC.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ So Brown was there for whatever reason.
🎙️ Well, Brown was probably deep intelligence. I mean, there’s a story of Townsend Brown engaging in a UFO crash retrieval and um I think it’s in the late 50s and it’s like I think Hartford, Connecticut. And this like green glowing object that seems like it’s losing mass gets collected by uh a professor there named Robert Brown. It then ends up at Moonwatch at Harvard which connected with Blue Book. And Robert Friend and J. Allen Hynek have possession of this, you know, material. And Townsend Brown walks in to to Harvard, flashes his credentials, and takes the material. And like that you hear stories like that time. You have telegraphs that I think um or telegrams that uh his daughter um I think has uh I I know this I think through um this amazing researcher on Townsend Brown named Jan Lundquist. And I think she says that there’s a telegram between William Stephenson, who’s the inspiration for James Bond, that Ian Fleming is with Churchill’s super spy who was like uh you know, um coordinating with Wild Bill Donovan, the OSS. He was like as high up as it gets when it comes to intelligence and there’s a telegram from um him to Josephine, who’s Townsend Brown’s wife, uh because Townsend Brown had had flown behind enemy territory, parachuted into, you know, Nazi Germany in ‘45 to interrogate some scientists because he was an expert in all this stuff. And it’s this telegram is says, you know, from William Stephenson, “Your husband is okay, you know, he’s he’s been injured, but he’s okay and he’s on his way back to the US or whatever.” So I can give you like 50 other stories like that. Like Curtis LeMay I mean his daughter said I think on the phone with me, Linda Brown, says Curtis LeMay chases Townsend Brown down the stairs cuz he’s so interested in his inventions and stuff. So this guy was like as deep as it gets when it came to the American intelligence and and military elite. Um so it’d make sense if Andrija Puharich was as well on the kind of the psychic you know, you know, vector. And maybe if all of this stuff is being coordinated at a higher level than we understand and there’s some spook spooky science stuff in the anti-gravity connects with the psychic stuff can you know, nuts and bolts like they all kind of materials they all kind of connect at the at the top. Those two guys seem like very central modes.
🎙️ Yeah, and I think there’s a lot of similarities with what she said you know, this idea of like flashing credentials and walking in play I mean there’s again I could give you 50 examples of Puharich doing that kind of thing that I’ve heard and so that yeah. And I think like the journals that mentioned Brown and these others like I don’t think these were sort of meant to be seen, you know, these were like buried in his in his records. In fact, like in the film you’ll see like his his his assistant at one point kind of mentions this idea that like not not um not long before he passed away like he had made mention like these papers I have in my house need someone needs to take them. I don’t trust giving them my children for their safety and so I think this is stuff that was not supposed to be um read, you know, or seen.
🎙️ It’s amazing.
🎙️ There’s a lot of other names I researched them all. He met with Dulles. I don’t I guess I don’t need to mention that.
🎙️ Wild.
🎙️ He there’s he’s literally again in the journal met he’s like you know, says something like uh you know, I wait was in the waiting room for an hour and finally got in and we had we talked and so you’re obviously you’re up to something serious if you’re doing that.
🎙️ meeting with the third director of the CIA who yeah, that’s wild. I mean if yeah, if anybody was kind of running the government behind the government it was Dulles so
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ Do you um yeah, some of the wilder testimonies
🎙️ Yeah, the space kids
🎙️ space kids, yeah.
🎙️ So yeah, they so they just basically recounted a lot of like um what they experienced, a lot of the channeling sessions. So, a wilder story is um uh this one of the space kids, his name is Jaime. He’s um from Mexico City. Great guy. And again, he was somebody who wouldn’t never have wanted to appear in a documentary. You know, like his life was totally fine. You know, he didn’t need to talk about this. But, he did because of eventually he told me like “If you’re willing to like tell the real story, like I’ll talk.” Because he knows like I did there’s just so much like BS stuff out there about Puharich and everything. But, um he told me a story about he um he was medit- they at one time he was doing an experiment with Puharich’s assistant, this woman who’s in the film. Um they were doing experiment, they were meditating uh together. And she they were sitting in a room together, they were both meditating, and he says that at one point she got up. And she went over to him, and she touched his forehead with her finger. And when she did that this big uh blue ball I guess this like ball of energy, as he describes it, appeared. Next thing he knew, he came to, she was all the way across the room against the wall, and he was back up against the wall. And he doesn’t remember what happened. And the last thing he remembers is that she touched his forehead, some sort of burst of blue light, she flew across the room. And he told me that and and you know, and he said look, you know, you can talk to the assistant like she’ll she’ll corroborate this and and I did and she did and she did. And his his theory was just like we some connection, you know, must have been been occurring and and what what what do you do with that? Because something I learned which was very bizarre because this was another thing that Puharesch didn’t kind of open up about until way later in his life is he he says and again, this is not me or speculation or making something up like he says in his own words, he invented this prosthetic finger that would have a a chip with a certain ELF frequency that would emit from it. So when you touch somebody’s forehead with this, it would be the exact frequency that would like knock them into the hypnotic state they needed to be in in order to do channeling. And so he could basically just like I could go like this to you and you would fall into the thing. He he says that. One of the one of the kids says, yeah, I I I remember that. So was this instance with Jaime and the finger something to do with that? What was it not? I don’t know, but that’s one of his stories that was really bizarre.
🎙️ Any UFO related stories?
🎙️ Um yeah, there was a lot of um there were a couple like the classic, you know, right now, there’s a a UFO that’s sort of hovering over this session and and some claim to have witnessed that. Um there was a few stories like that.
🎙️ So that would be in the like his protocol like he’d be saying that or like they’d be like automatically channeling that. That would be like the the nine are saying that saying this through them. Yeah. But um then there was a lot of um
🎙️ But like if we’re to get super concrete about this, like is that him beaming the message right now there is a UFO, you know, above our head? Or is it like creating some weird protocol and then like what happens to them happens to them and we have no idea where that content is coming from?
🎙️ Um I don’t know.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ Yeah. It’s strange because a lot of these sessions are very long like some of them are literally like two hours long, you know? And it’s it’s just I I hate to say like it’s kind of like you just need to hear it to kind of like to understand because it’s it’s just it it really is mind-boggling because I I constantly go from like this is this is an experiment, this is being till I oh no, this is like literally he’s making contact with an extraterrestrial. You know?
🎙️ suspend disbelief entirely and just take the contents of the nine at face value, how would you characterize these nine beings and what they want for humanity?
🎙️ Well, it’s like I said before, um they they speak a lot about this idea that we have the ability of destroying ourselves, you know? And that if there’s a way they can prevent that, then they they want to. And they talk a lot about nuclear bases and this kind of thing that, you know, we hear a lot about now. Uh they kind of say like we’re kind of behind a lot of the sightings that that are occurring at nuclear bases. Um
🎙️ But but then now I’m like you’re making me think this shit’s real.
🎙️ [laughter]
🎙️ The re- the reason I’d love to be cynical about it, but like the nuclear stuff has been going on since the ’40s. There’s this guy Bud Clem. Uh there’s this UFO and nukes documentary. It’s all based on Robert Hastings’ great work in his book. It’s really good. And I made kind of a, you know, another little thing with Robert Hastings on my channel, but you know, this guy Bud Clem as early as 1945 in Hanford was talking about these fireballs in the sky and they did this project Twinkle, which was deleted from the Air Force archives. Uh Lincoln LaPaz, this meteorite expert uh at University of New Mexico, was talking about green fireballs that seem intelligently propelled, flashing, that like aren’t explained by anything prosaic. Then just like the the nuclear connection is so ubiquitous. And then you’re telling me the Atomic Energy Commission gave him money.
🎙️ They gave him like over a million dollars.
🎙️ Yeah, so like if I were them I’d be like try to tap into what the hell is, you know, controlling. Yeah.
🎙️ dude, this is a crazy rabbit hole.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ [laughter]
🎙️ Obviously uh um what was I going to say? You know, you’re See, now you’re now you’re entering what I’ve been in for like years of this constant like wait a second, now I think this because um there there was a lot of uh Well, you know, the the classic thing where like with disin- for UFO disinformation they often say like some of it, you know, some real stuff is sort of peppered into I think it was that kind of thing, too, where like maybe there was real, you know, ET UFO-related research going on with some of this mind control stuff peppered in just to throw off the course, you know.
🎙️ connection did you just make when I said the Atomic Energy Commission did
🎙️ what what I was thinking was um there is uh I think I sent you something about this guy a while ago and uh I I have to say now I don’t know enough. Um, so I don’t want to go too much into it, but there’s a guy his name is Oliver Reiser. He was a philosophy professor at University of Pittsburgh in the ’60s and ’70s. Um, and he wrote a book called Cosmic Humanism, which I’ve only read some of, but it’s basically this idea like his whole worldview is this idea that like everything is run everything in the world is just run on frequency, tone, sound. He thinks it’s like the universe is all sound. Uh, and that’s how, you know, we that’s how like inner inner stellar travel works. That’s how all psychic stuff where it all comes back down to this, you know, sound, tones. Again, there’s this big connection here with this tone stuff. But anyways, Puharich knew this guy. They exchanged like dozens and dozens of letters. But this guy’s theory, Reiser, was, you know, the ability to communicate with, you know, ET, UFOs through tones, through sound. And he was like again, so complex that I can barely understand it. But him and Puharich would exchange these letters that were like, you know, two masters going back and forth about this stuff like diagrams, charts, math, and like you got to think like they obviously were like on to something. And again, this goes back for the hundredth time of like Puharich’s real interest in this stuff. But Reiser, yeah, this was his theory that the way to communicate with, you know, non-human intelligence was essentially through tones and through sound. And so you get Puharich, you know, doing that, basically, where he’s using tones and sound with space kids, and can you, while they’re in a trance, there’s a lot of experiments where like, I’m going to play this certain tone, and can you kind of like connect with that tone while you’re in this hypnotic state, and can you follow that tone, where is it bringing you, and what do you hear now? All sorts of stuff like that. Um so, I guess what I’m getting at is maybe there was some real research there
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ that had to do with something that wasn’t just, you know, a mind control thing, cuz this guy Riser was brilliant. I mean, in his obituary, Albert Eins- Einstein said he was like, you know, a genius.
🎙️ Was that true?
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ What?
🎙️ Yeah, Albert Einstein said like, Riser is he had some quote about him being, you know, this genius.
🎙️ That’s insane, because Riser talks about like parapsychology and mind matter stuff, and you think of Einstein as being totally opposed to
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ that kind of stuff.
🎙️ like a lot of guys, like he started doing more, you know, quote-unquote legitimate research, but he got he got obsessed with this, again, this this theory of tone, sound, connecting the universe.
🎙️ Wow.
🎙️ This is how everything works. And so, him and Puharich were um exchanging a lot of letters about like, you know, do you have the ability to to create such and such a tone, and at what at what speed should it spin within the, you know, complex stuff. But, would lead me as a layperson to think like, okay, clearly they like they’re talking about something serious here, you know.
🎙️ God, so fascinating.
🎙️ So, so, the point
🎙️ And and the Atomic Energy Commission funding it, I find fascinating.
🎙️ Literally the same years he’s exchanging letters with Riser.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ ‘63, ‘64.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ That’s when he gets the contract from Atomic Energy Energy Commission. I mean, it’s all there’s there’s it’s a paper trail.
🎙️ And the 50s UFOs showing up around nuclear bases is you this ubiquitous thing. It’s constant. It’s all over various CIA Air Force documents. You know, I I sort of document a lot of this stuff. Hastings documents it. It’s It was definitely a thing. 64, there’s a famous case of Vandenberg Air Force Base.
🎙️ Oh, yeah.
🎙️ The guy in the photo instrumentation specialist named Bob Jacobs. Um so, that’s that’s fascinating.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ Very interesting.
🎙️ So, yeah, just points back to this idea that I I I you know, he he was genuinely interested in in in paranormal, you know, research and in UFO. I mean, it’s not just like all of that was fake.
🎙️ Yeah. Yeah.
🎙️ I just think it got muddled at some point.
🎙️ Yeah, and like I you know, maybe there’s somebody like typing out, you know, what these space kids are channeling, and then it’s converted into this ELF frequency, and it’s transmitting to the, you know, space kids brain or whatever.
🎙️ Well, you know, it’s funny you say that cuz on a lot of the tapes there’s mention of um coupling to the computer data bank
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ is often a term that is thrown around a lot. And this idea that there are some sort of computers involved.
🎙️ On which end though? Because are they recording what they’re saying? And
🎙️ No, what you what you just said. Somebody’s typing something.
🎙️ Woah.
🎙️ Cuz they often say
🎙️ Well, now I’m back in the in the more cynical camp where it sounds like mind control.
🎙️ at one point he said that you know, the referring to the channel being the the person, you know, at some point they will become a more reliable source of data, and there’s a lot of talk about about that. And again, like what we have are tapes, and and tons of them and hundreds of hours. So, like you just all you can do is piece together
🎙️ Well, what did the space kids think? Do they think that they were genuinely tapping into nine, you know, non-human entities or extraterrestrials or do they think that they were tapping into like some dude on the other end? Like cuz a lot of them probably know the history that you know at this point.
🎙️ a great question and I think that’s really the best way to approach it cuz they they were involved first hand.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ But I think, you know, to answer what I know is I actually discovered things about you know, what I’m talking about with these more sinister connections that they they did not know, in fact.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ Um one of the space kids who I’m close with like yeah, she she was like, you know, shocked. I I I cuz again, what what they didn’t understand what I think a lot of people didn’t understand who were involved in this project is like information I was getting information like as recent as like 6 months ago about things that I didn’t know that were like really important to the story, like this guy Bob Beck, who was who was most certainly CIA, who was at the at Ossining at the time of these exact space kids experiments. This one of the spaces like I never even knew knew that. Like you’re telling me this for the first time. So, it’s a mix between I think to be quite honest, I think a lot of them want to believe that what was happening was genuine and I think they want to remember the time they had there as a positive time and they want to they don’t want to go down the negative path or they don’t maybe want to accept that the negative path may may be you know, the reality. And I don’t I mean, I would probably do that. I mean, I you know, so I think um some of them want to just try to say, “Hey, look, we were told we were talking to the nine. We were communicating with the nine. We were It was a good time. We were young. We were free, you know, etc.”
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ And a few of them um have become more open. Like the guy from Mexico City I told you where I think some of the things that I told them made them say, “Wait a second. I didn’t know that.”
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ And all of the sudden after all these years, they themselves are going, “Wait, what is that? In whose name is it?” And they’re starting to put pieces together that they never they never thought about. And they’re starting to maybe think at least, okay, something else was going on. What was it? You know, we don’t we don’t know for sure, but I think they’re willing to accept like some something else was going on back then.
🎙️ One of the trippiest people that interacted with Puharich who who he probably had plans for and almost seems like the subject of some you know, kind of magical experiment is Valery Ransone.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ Who is she?
🎙️ She Well, I wish I knew who she was. She’s like the most elusive person I’ve ever come across. I think she’s the most elusive person in this whole UFO history.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ Well, I mean, so basically what I do know is that she was um she was working in the uh White House during the uh Nixon administration. And it had nothing to do with like intelligent or maybe it did, but it had nothing to do with intelligence or anything. It was it was some sort of um uh program to I can’t remember. It was sort of like a snap benefits type program. It was some something like this, but that’s how she was, you know, involved in government was she was part of a a program like that. But apparently, she became very interested in the UFO topic. Uh she became very good friends with um, Gordon Cooper. And she claimed to be a space kid, I guess. Like she claimed to be able to like channel information. And so she somehow wound up at Puharich’s lab, lab nine in in ‘78. And she is very there there’s nothing there about her. There’s nothing out there about her. There’s a couple people I know about who have been trying to track her down for years. They can’t. Apparently she’s still alive, but she basically, um, I believe was extremely deep in the whole UFO thing and I think knew a lot. We have a tape recording of, um, this guy Elvis Starr who was very very high up, uh, I can’t remember his exact role. He was like maybe head of the army in the in the ’60s, some high up role in the army. But anyways, he’s very very connected. There’s pictures of him with like every, you know, president during the ’60s, ’70s. Like there’s a tape of him saying like I met Valerie Ransone in the White House. Um, she believed she was in touch with extraterrestrials and he kind of makes a joke like, “What do I know? Maybe she was.” But that kind of firmly places her in that circle. Cuz there’s a lot of speculation about like what’s true and what’s not true, but this was a very legitimate guy basically placing her
🎙️ What’s what what was his role exactly?
🎙️ He was, um, so from what I understand is yeah, he was like the head of, uh, army something or other. And then he went on to become the president of like West Virginia University, but he was a part of all these like weird science, um, uh, companies and weird energy companies that were happening in the late ’70s. Like there was this this company called mag magnetic energies LLC or or that Valerie had some sort of connection to and this guy was like consulting for that or he was connected to a lot of like weird stuff basically. And there’s very little on him other than his more official kind of government roles. But he he has it cuz he was writing a memoir and we found this tape where he was kind of like dictating um the what he was writing and he says yeah I met her she was in the White House a lot. She knew a lot of people. But yeah she basically she just claimed that she could communicate with UFOs that were giving her advanced information that she in effect had to pass on to like important scientists. She predicted the failure of one of these rocket launches in the late 70s that actually did occur. Which I don’t I don’t know.
🎙️ That’s so great. What wow.
🎙️ So so so basically she was there but but the kicker is like she was also really involved in a lot of Tesla technology research, a lot of ELF research, and a lot of people who I know who were um this including the space kids uh were like yeah she was like she was connected she was extremely mysterious. We have no idea what was going on with her.
🎙️ So they remember seeing her around?
🎙️ Yeah. Yeah yeah.
🎙️ And then and then but and she was somehow like do you know what role she had in the White House or?
🎙️ No other than this guy Elvis Starr basically saying like I I met her on on numerous occasions at you know inside the White House. You can look it up. I can look it up too. I I I’m sorry I don’t remember but it was some program that she like ran in DC and as part of the Nixon administration which again was not like involved in an intelligence thing but that was her like in with with that that world.
🎙️ And she had some NRO involvement too?
🎙️ Yeah Jacques Vallee is the only one I know who wrote about it but he claims that he he spoke with her back in that late ’70s time and she was doing some sort of work for the NRO and um experimenting with satellites and messages from satellites to people and I’m telling you, man. Yeah, I mean, I’ve tried to I mean, the other film I’m doing, which is a whole other thing, but she’s really involved in that and that’s how I got into her cuz we have a tape recording of her um that was a phone call that was recorded, but yeah, if there’s like any crazy enigma in this world that someone needs to like get to the bottom of, it’s it’s her. And uh I don’t know if they ever will cuz I’ve certainly tried hard to. And apparently she’s still alive.
🎙️ She’s still alive?
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ Oh, you got to go find her, man.
🎙️ Well, I’ve I’ve I think I I think we kind of know where where she is and stuff, but but it’s really just strange. She was very involved with Gordon Cooper. And again, he had started some company as well that was some like advanced energy LLC or something. And so, from what I understand, she was kind of like going around, and even Jacques says this, like she was just trying to create this network of of, you know, high-up government individuals and people that kind of like start getting interested in in advanced technology, Tesla technology, ELF stuff. But all all the while she claimed to be, you know, a space kid and able to receive information and and channel information and
🎙️ So trippy.
🎙️ Yeah, there’s a guy, a Kit Green. He um I mean, I don’t even care anymore at this point about saying stuff like this. Like he I was talking to him for a while and he was like, “Yeah, I can’t be involved in anything that mentions Puthoff. It’s too controversial.” And then he told me that he knew Vallee Ransone really well and that he was like, “I don’t know much about him.” Again, I’m not trying to cover cuz I’m like nervous or anything. I I genuinely don’t really know. I just know I’ve heard a lot about him being like a doc a a person who helps like abductee people claim they’re abducted and stuff. So, apparently he was doing that even back then with Vallee and he was working with her, which I don’t know what that means exactly. But, he was very I mean, there’s something out there online that’s a you know, very you know, open where he talks about this, I think. But, um Anyways, he I I was like, “Hey, I’m trying to do this Vallee thing.” He was just like, “Yeah, no.” Uh and and like basically like don’t talk to me again and anything revolving that name I can’t be associated with. And every single person I’ve talked to who knew Vallee or had same reaction. Yeah, he I’m literally like, “I wouldn’t go there. You should just kind of stop now and don’t I’ve gotten all that stuff.” So, like what’s going on? I don’t know.
🎙️ Do you have So, first of all, first of all, a little context for the audience. Kit Green um is deeply involved. He’s a CIA psychiatrist and doctor.
🎙️ I I knew that, but after all that stuff I don’t really know like what his
🎙️ He’s he’s deeply involved in like I think the whatever CIA files around biological interactions from you know, people interacting with UFOs. That was given to um Gary Nolan in the like mid-2010s. I think that was I think given by Kit Green and Kit Green analyzed them alongside Gary Nolan. But, he’s like a long-time guy who kind of pops up in UFO lore. Kind of akin to uh Hal Puthoff, but really seems to be as deep as anybody specifically on kind of the the psychological kind of you know, um you know, neuroscientific dimension of this whole thing. So, what what do you do you speculate as to what Valerie
🎙️ Well, yeah, I have a couple of things. But yeah, the Kit Green thing again, I’m not I did talk to him. I’m not trying to throw him under the bus. I just think he like it’s just another example of someone who’s like, oh, her, yeah, I can’t be involved. Like you you you’re better off like not going there kind of thing. So, I couple of speculations. Firstly, and this came from someone um uh named Bruce Erickson, who’s this kind of like new age researcher guy who um I I know who’s really cool, but uh he knew her he knew Valerie really well. And he um painted her in the same light as like, you know, she always happened to be there. Whenever something was going on, she always happened to travel with no no issues, no money issues. She’s always anywhere she needed to be. But um he speculates that she was sort of um like a spy and and the and the type that would maybe sleep with with somebody for information. And a lot of reasons that these men in particular don’t want to talk about her is you know, I don’t need to say it. Maybe something happened, now they’re married. They don’t want to go there. Maybe that’s why it’s this very standoffish thing, which I can get that. But that was his theory um because apparently she’s really good. I mean, there’s one photograph that I know it literally one that exists of her. That’s not true. There’s one online. And there’s one that I have in the Puharich archives of her at Lab 9. Um and you know, yeah, she was very good looking. So, that was this one theory is that she was kind of like getting information um on behalf of who, I don’t know, but this, you know, you hear about that uh happening, you know, sleep to that kind of thing. So, that was what this guy said who knew her well. That was his theory. But um the other theory is that she um was again with the same idea of being an attractive woman was able to lure in uh individuals to help with funding for certain projects. And hey, I’m a part of this thing, you should be a part of this thing. Cuz again, she was always on these boards of these sort of weird energy companies and things like that. But um the really weird thing is I don’t know if you’ve seen it. There’s There’s allegedly an interview with her on YouTube. So you you probably know this YouTube account Eyes on Cinema.
🎙️ Oh, yeah.
🎙️ So So anyways, on there this one day, this was not even that long ago. It was like a year ago. This video pops up and it says Valerie Ransom like describes her UFO um experience. And you can go anyone can go right now and and look it up. And I was like, holy sh- holy like that’s her. I’ve never seen Again, there’s one picture. And I’m like, look Oh my This is crazy, right? So in in the interview, it’s really bizarre. She tells us really weird. And the thing is it checks out of what we know from her. And most of the information is from the Forbidden Science books, Jacques Vallée stuff. And you know, she says, “I was going to school in northern Illinois.” In this interview, uh she says she moved to Houston. We know Jacques met her in Houston. Uh the point is everyone I know who knew Valerie, I said, “Oh, this is great. A video exists of her now.” Sent it to them. “Hey, look. Here’s Valerie. Like, can you believe this? Every No, that’s not her.” “No, that’s definitely not her. I knew her. That’s not her.” And I said, “Well, that doesn’t make sense cuz like everything she says in the video checks out to what we definitely know.” “Nope, not her.” Not one person. And even this
🎙️ Did Do you think they were like they just again didn’t want to admit their own to
🎙️ but it’s just it’s so goes back. She’s so She’s the biggest enigma in this whole world. Every single one of them, nope. Oh man, what you know, anyone who thinks that’s her is an idiot. And but everything she says checks out. And in the video, she tells this crazy story about how she had a UFO experience when she was a a kid in college and her friend saw it. And then after that, she continued to have bizarre um sightings of a UFO sightings happen to her in her life many times. And then some guy, you got to see the video. She says this guy um shows up one day to her job and is like, “Hey, you know, I want to take you” I can’t remember exactly that what she says. But basically this very mysterious guy shows up. They go out to lunch. And he’s like, “You know, I know that you’ve had these UFO experience and he and he and he spouts all this stuff about her that no one would otherwise ever know. Like stuff about her family. I know you’ve had a you had this UFO experience at this time and this location.” So she’s shocked, right? So then, she says she gets into the car with this guy cuz he’s driving her home or something. And he gets a tape cassette, puts it in the car, and the tape cassette starts and it’s a voice, a metallic voice, basically saying, you know, I am an I am an ET. And I’m here on Earth on like a humanitarian mission. And I we want you to work with us. You you’re going to be the first uh test human to work with us. And you know, do you do you accept this position? And and then she she the guy parks and she gets out or whatever. And and she starts to question, okay, what what’s going on here? Like was this real? Was this guy trying to like recruit and what It’s it’s that’s her story. And it And then after that is when all this stuff happens of her are involved with this was like early 70s she claims this happens and all this stuff that we know about is you know late 76 and 77 70. So that’s her like origin story, but apparently it’s not her according to everyone who knew her oh that’s not her that’s the not the right woman that’s not even what she looks like. So but on the tape recording we have it’s which is a recorded phone conversation the voice on that which is most definitely her sounds it’s it’s her on this video it sounds the same it sounds like that voice.
🎙️ probably her.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ It’s so weird.
🎙️ So that’s a rabbit hole in and of itself but but basically yeah she spent like a good amount of time at lab nine. Um and she brought Gordon Cooper there and then she disappeared and everyone who knew her was like yeah I’ve no idea what happened to her or they’re just straight up don’t want to talk about her. Uh I don’t know it’s really bizarre she wrote some book that’s a basically all this like channeled information that she got.
🎙️ Have you read it?
🎙️ no well I I’ve I’ve skimmed it but I think you used to be able to buy it on some odd website which is now down but um it’s very very strange and um when I was trying to get in contact with her I weirdly this is a crazy story I got in I this this guy got in touch with me I completely out of the blue and this has happened a few times throughout the the making of this where like someone is like hey I heard you got you have Buharich’s archives I’m really interested in him and what do you have and we should we should talk and and that kind of thing.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ This one guy weirdly right around the time I was trying to um try try to track down Valerie he reaches out to me and he’s like same thing hey I know I’m a I’m a researcher and I heard your name about Buharich and this and that. And he’s like, you know, have you heard of Valerie Ransone? I said, yeah. He goes, oh, would you want to talk to her cuz I’m actually in contact with her.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ And I’m like, yeah, sure. And and so he forwards me an email, which is allegedly from Valerie, which is like, you know, hey, you know, let’s talk and this and that. And and one thing led to another and this guy just completely ghost disappears, right?
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ Never heard from him again. I look him up on Facebook. And again, I may maybe I’m crazy and this stuff has gotten to my head, but his Facebook looks like the the the the quintessential I’m making a fake Facebook account. This this isn’t me kind of thing.
🎙️ Sure.
🎙️ And that, you know, again, I’m very level-headed. That it really like spooked me out. And then years later, year this is we’re talking probably 2000 uh probably like 2016, 17. I’m talking like, you know, not that long ago, like 2021, 20 He reaches back out to me and is like, hey, you know, what’s going on with the film and is there any way I can see it and and did you ever talk to Valerie? If you want, I can try to get And I just never responded to the guy again. It was really strange.
🎙️ Wow.
🎙️ And I tried the email that he had that he claimed was Valerie’s. Of course, it like, you know, weird.
🎙️ But well, what happened when you emailed Valerie?
🎙️ Oh, no, nothing.
🎙️ Okay.
🎙️ It wasn’t it didn’t kick back, but I just never, you know, I never got anything back ever, yeah.
🎙️ But you think you’ve located her?
🎙️ Yes.
🎙️ And you’re going to try to interview her.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ That’s amazing. Well, I hope you do, man. That would be incredible.
🎙️ Yeah. I mean, there’s a lot to get in with into with her, but that’s that’s the gist of it. And then just the fact alone that Kit Green was involved with her back in the late ’70s is really strange.
🎙️ So strange.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ And oh man,
🎙️ early ’80s, yeah.
🎙️ This is crazy. It’s so It’s like there’s a woman in the Nixon White House who’s claims she’s channeling aliens and also happens to be on the board of all these sort of, you know, spooky science outfits that seem to stem from exotic Tesla, you know, extra low frequency technology. It’s
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ really wild.
🎙️ And what I can say for for again for a fact is like in the late ’70s there really was like so much um unknown about this potential like radio frequency weapons. And it’s on YouTube. There’s a whole CNN special which came out a little later. I think it was like ‘83. But it was kind of detailing all the research that had gone into like you know, those those types of weapons and um you know, radio towers that can beam a certain frequency that can agitate people and etc. So that was kind of like the wild west in the in the late ’70s there of like I think people trying to figure out what this is, what can be done with it. And he was just like in in the middle of that. And um you know, there was a lot of people running around researching that at the time. And I think there was also a lot of research happening of um you know, what’s the potential of this stuff, what’s possible with it. Um so and Valerie was again interested in that. And was involved in in that. So
🎙️ It’s so wild. Um what are the implications for all of this on modern UFO disclosure which seems to usually emphasize kind of aerospace contractors, secret, you know, nuts and bolts weapons technology, faster than light travel, that sort of thing. What are the implications of the stuff you’re looking into for for that?
🎙️ I think it’s I honestly I I think it’s more of the same that we talked about earlier. I think there’s some there’s some truth peppered into a lot of, you know, false going on. And I think that that still uh happens, you know. I think that’s still going on. So, you know, I think the implications are it’s just still difficult to navigate what’s what’s real and what is not real, you know? And I think it takes people, you know, like you and and others who are like really seriously interested in looking into this stuff and talking to people to to kind of like keep going with it, you know.
🎙️ Yeah, well, this is a I mean, if there you know, it’s a big puzzle that we’re putting together. This is a huge piece that I think is missing for a lot of people, you know, prior to your movie. So, I really hope uh people go check it out. I think it’s going to be, you know, make make a lot of waves and update a lot of people’s understanding of this whole topic and I loved it. I thought it was really well made. Um how how how how can people go find it?
🎙️ Uh well, it’s going to be for purchase um on, you know, iTunes and YouTube and that kind of thing. Yeah, we’re going to do kind of like this uh release now with um Age of Disclosure.
🎙️ Okay.
🎙️ We’re going to do like a you know, you can purchase it for a certain amount of time.
🎙️ situation. Okay, cool.
🎙️ But there’s some interest in in um some streaming stuff, so
🎙️ And yeah, any anything big that I didn’t touch on that I should have asked?
🎙️ Honestly, like yeah, probably, but
🎙️ See, I mean, you’re you got you’re a gift that keeps on giving. That’s crazy.
🎙️ Oh oh um the one thing I was going to mention is um this is again an example of something like very recently, like Bobby Ray Inman.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ a lot of people are talking about right now. I called him cuz because he was uh head of uh Naval Intelligence, I think, during this exact time um that Puharich is doing a lot of space kid stuff, like late ’70s into the early ’80s, and a lot of ELF stuff. And I just just called him straight up, and I introduced myself.
🎙️ How did you get his number?
🎙️ number online.
🎙️ What?
🎙️ Yeah. I kid you not, it’s one of those classic white pages sites where it was like a bunch of different numbers, and I’m like, “Yeah, none of these are ever going to work.” And I was like, “Hello?” And it was him. It was one of them.
🎙️ Oh my god.
🎙️ And he was pretty nice, but I just straight up was like, “Hey, have you ever heard, you know, the name Andrija Puharich? Do you know Bob Beck?” That cuz those were the two working at that time um with the space kids, and he was like, “No, I’ve never never heard the name.” And he was really nice, and he was just like, “If you come across anything more concrete, you can call me back.” And and um but I just figured, huh, maybe he he knows something, cuz we know we know Naval Intelligence at one point uh was like a big funder of Puharich, not not only back in the ’50s, but going into um the early ’80s as well.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ But anyways, he didn’t
🎙️ That’s what Harold Malmgren always said. He said the the deepest, you know, kind of core was the ONI, Office of Naval Intelligence. They really knew the most about this stuff.
🎙️ Yeah, he he Puharich was in with them very early on, and he continued. In fact, there was a um scientist working with Puharich at the this time, Elizabeth Rauscher.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ She passed away, but they got like this huge grant from the the ONI. And I was like, you know, looking everywhere to try to find documents, she has a huge archive at Berkeley of all of her research, and I I had someone go there and look, and we couldn’t find anything, but but um you know, they they were working with a lot of people then. Um But yeah, Inman uh didn’t come up with anything. So,
🎙️ Yeah. Well, he might have reasons to withhold information as well. He was the I think uh uh deputy director of the CIA and the director of the NSA at the same time, I believe. [laughter]
🎙️ Yeah, that’s right. Something like that. Um Oh, the other thing Yeah, the last thing I’ll say is uh not unlike Valerie, one of the uh space kids who we didn’t interview cuz we couldn’t find her, but she’s on a lot of these tapes. So, it was this woman named Sharon.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ So, um you know, Sharon with two Rs.
🎙️ Mhm.
🎙️ And like Valerie, you know, huge question mark. Everyone who knew her then was like she was this very legitimate real psychic. Puharich apparently would bring her around, show her off to people in government and academics and just say like look what she can do. She can channel all this advanced information. He was always working with her. There’s pictures of her. And she just disappeared. And everyone who knew her back then was like, you know, it would be amazing if you found her because she They’re convinced that she was pulled into a you know, Stranger Things Montauk project type project where like she was the real deal and she was sort of pulled into a project like that. That’s why she’s just kind of like wiped off the face of the earth. There’s nothing about her anywhere. Again, I went to the great lengths to try to locate her, nothing.
🎙️ Does this
🎙️ People don’t want to Like Valerie, they don’t want to talk about her when you bring her up. So, that was another example of like, okay, maybe there’s some reality here because it’s just so bizarre and like multiple space kids were like, yeah, I knew her well and I I wish we could find her. Like she was a friend of mine and she disappeared.
🎙️ Just like she was a the whole program was a feeder maybe into something deeper and
🎙️ Yeah, there’s a lot of conspiracy stuff like that out there, but um people think that his Yeah, Bu Harrach’s lab was was that. So.
🎙️ Do you Does this add to your conviction, you know, I think even the makers of Stranger Things say that uh it’s based off of, you know, the Montauk experiments and I I think it’s pretty well established that there were some experiments in Montauk, Long Island. Does this add to your conviction that I don’t know, you hear all these things around gifted and talented education you know kids who have psi abilities
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ being taken into secret national labs, facilities, often associated with the Atomic Energy Commission or federally funded research and development centers like Battelle Memorial Institute and others and um you know, they’re they’re told to like, you know, how do you interact with this exotic piece of metal or uh you know, pick a card or, you know, things like that. Does this add to your conviction that this was happening in sort of a widespread way?
🎙️ Oh, yeah. Bu Harrach himself um again, if you choose to believe, you know, what he says, he he openly says, I helped locate these kids. He he talks about it. I mean, he says like I was the person who would say, you know, yeah, this you know, this one checks out and they would move on to wherever they would move on to. Um he talks about helping other countries with this, the UK. He said he traveled to the UK and helped them locate children with psi abilities. So, it’s all that it’s all that gray area, you know.
🎙️ Yeah, and you you have to ask why this stuff is coming back into vogue. Like you have the Telepathy Tapes top the podcast charts in the entire country.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ And part of me is thinks it’s a beautiful, amazing thing and obviously uh in my opinion, I think I don’t think it’s all a psi op. I think that some of these autistic non-verbal children are actually they do have really amazing abilities. It’s unfortunate that some of them like this woman that went on Danny Jones, I think are actually faking things. The mother of one of the kids and she clearly was peeking past this blindfold which is just so sad and what a poor representation of you know, again what I think is an underlying real phenomena. But does it does it make you ask questions around why is all of this stuff coming back into vogue? It feels like if you were to take an index of aliens, sci, and psychedelics, and you were to you were to you know, like say it’s like a synthetic derivatives like an ETF or something. If you were to invest in this in the late 60s, early 70s, you’d like lose a lot of money into today. But now if you were to invest in these things five years ago or something,
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ it just feels like they’re all taking off.
🎙️ I know.
🎙️ It feels like the the trend is like and are you cynical about that? Is there is there is there I mean maybe even to take that ETF analogy further, are there financial or corporate interests behind the repopularization of some of these things? Cuz a part of me is extremely idealistic about them coming out because I do think it touches on kind of deeper architectures and nature of reality. And then there’s another part of me where I’m like, it’s got to be coming out now cuz of some military industrial complex reason or something.
🎙️ I don’t know. I mean, I think
🎙️ [clears throat]
🎙️ I I certainly think this film is going to help, you know, put some pieces together about the history of all this stuff. And I think the fact that it’s coming out now is interesting because of all this, you know, this resurgence of interest in it. But um I know what you mean. I don’t know. Like I talked to a kid who claimed he was part of the GATE program and I I won’t say his name, but now now he’s very vocal online about his involvement [snorts] in that and what he did and he wanted to talk to me because it was so similar to the stuff the space kids did that he read about, but I don’t know what’s I don’t know what to believe, you know, with that. So, it’s just I don’t know. I’m in the same I’m in the same boat as you. I don’t know what what the motives may be, but I think that Puharich [snorts] was certainly extremely important in this whole world and the fact that there’s never really been something like on him that’s out there is um exciting for me, obviously. So, yeah. I think it’ll I think it’ll raise some eyebrows.
🎙️ I think so, too. Raise some eyebrows, maybe ruffle some feathers, but you know, you you know you’re on the right path if you do that. But, um
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ Greg, this is an honor, man. This is a lot of fun. One of my honestly, like I I love information-dense podcasts, especially ones that are uncorrelated from other, you know, I love the the stories, you know, I love I saw a thing and I was in the bed and I was in you know, they put a chip in me. Like that’s it’s fascinating.
🎙️ Yeah.
🎙️ But, you it’s always hard to sense make after that. Like how does this fit into some coherent tapestry of what’s actually happening? I love this interview because you just to me, again, you know, you you added this big puzzle piece uh that seems to be missing as far as this whole story and obviously begets uh you know, 100 more questions, but um I I really hope everybody checks out the movie and uh thank you for being here.
🎙️ Thank you, man. Appreciate it.
🎙️ Awesome.
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🎙️ Woo!